Saxton Hale Server - Input

[Fireslide]

So there's been a few queries, admin requests regarding the Saxton Hale server. It's a fun game mode, but not without it's problems, bugs and balance issues aside, the major issue I see is there's some kind of set of unwritten communal rules that have come into existence for whatever reason.

Unwritten rules
1. Capping is bad
2. Taunting can also sometimes be viewed as bad
3. Surviving seems more important than actually attacking/damaging Hale

Now I don't understand the reason behind those viewpoints, embracing them however is definitely a bad idea.

1. Capping is bad
Is it viewed as bad because it ends your run as Hale, or in the other cases, Hale didn't chase down and kill you individually? The reason I'd suggest capping should be encouraged is to speed up the game. Whilst it may be fun for Hale and the few spies or scouts he's chasing at the end, it's really really boring for the 20+ people watching and waiting for their turn to play.

2. Taunting can also sometimes be viewed as bad
I don't think this is a widely held view or rule, but it seems like it arises because if a player is good at being Hale, taunts make it very easy to win. This is only the case if you are against an unorganised opposition, a couple of pyros, medics, scouts, soldiers, engineers working together well can prevent you from killing anyone by airblasting, air juggling, stunning and ubering. The taunt/stun prevents a good team from forming a solid defensive block that you can't break.

3. Surviving seems more important than actually attacking/damaging Hale
Maybe it's some players not understanding how the game mode works, or they just claim they won by being the last one Hale killed but I often see players hiding in hard to reach places and not seeking out Hale or trying to damage him. The thing is, if you don't do enough damage to Hale at the start, then you won't stand a chance at stopping him from capping if he chooses to, which he should be.

How the game should be played
There's 3 phases.
Phase 1
Hale vs 20 or 30 players. In this part it's the job of the players to deal as much damage to hale as possible, whilst staying alive. Hale has roughly about 1000 hp per player, so if you can deal 1000 damage you've done your job and die happy. Doing 1000 damage isn't too difficult, it's landing about 7 sniper shots, 10 to 20 rockets, a couple of good sticky traps, a backstab or two, a few pistol clips etc. Hale's job is to get the player count down to something manageable and take out key classes or players earlier on whilst avoiding too much damage.

Phase 2
When the player count is reduced enough it goes two ways. Either Hale has taken a lot of damage and will have to be more careful, or the players haven't done enough damage and they'll need to be more careful. Either way the game is often decided by this point. Why? If you haven't dealt enough damage, then it's just a matter of time. Either Hale is competent and knows how to use taunt at which point it's just about building up enough rage, catching a player out, repeat until phase 3. Or Hale is incompetent and it's going to take several minutes or more of peppering/damaging him to kill him whilst avoiding the taunt/punches. Both those situations are pretty dull.

Phase 3
When the point opens up for capping it's basically signalling the end of that round. If you've done enough damage to Hale, you stand on the point and force him to come to you, hopefully having enough knockback and damage to finish him off before he can just stand on the point and win. If you haven't done enough damage to Hale, then guess what, Hale is going to win because there's no way you can get him off the point. Good luck dealing 19000 damage as 5 scouts.

Solutions:
1. Set the point to be capture-able after x minutes (where x is about 4 to 5). This gives an incentive to deal as much damage to Hale as possible early on, because if you don't, then he's just going to be able to walk onto the point and win. This also prevents stalemates where it's Hale vs a few scouts and spies, but the point hasn't opened up yet.
2. Rewarding players for damage/capping. It might be possible to add a damage/cap count which gets converted to queue points. So that way people playing the game as intended get more queue points to actually achieve the objective rather than waste time. This would require a bit of coding and changing of the mod, so it's unlikely to happen soon.
3. Set a max roundtime limit, after which everyone gets slayed/round ends.
4. We could try a different version of the mod (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Freak_Fortress_2)

So as the game playing public, what are your comments, feedback?

[.♥. Cupcake .♥.]

... ah that explains why, the first time I ever played a Saxton Hale server, that the entire server all at once bombarded me with insults and swearing when I was standing on the capture point.

[sycotk]

Very nice writeup, a good read. You are correct about the unwritten communal rules. However I do have some concerns with your solutions;

Capture point available after x minutes.

If the point is capture-able after x minutes (x being a short amount of time however), some people will deter from the intended aim of this solution, and instead just wait and capture the point without actually damaging hale. This is already apparent without this solution. I've been in many games, and at least a few times a day you have a few or even one guy sit on the capture point just to capture it. Not to use it as a second win condition, but a first. Yes this makes the game quicker however it is done when there are 15+ players still in the game and very capable of killing Saxton.

Rewarding players for damaging/capping

The current solution you provided probably wouldn't be the best because then the good players will be Saxton more often, leaving the other players waiting longer for their turn. Shouldn't everyone get a turn at being Saxton?

I do however believe that a round time limit would solve the problems. If the round time limit could be set to a player threshhold I do believe that would solve most of the problems.

e.g. When 5 or 10 players are left, set the game to end in 1-2 minutes.

I would just like to point out that the majority of the Saxton hale population is adolescent players.

[Fireslide]

Capture point available after x minutes.
Not to use it as a second win condition, but a first.

It's still a win. Saxton can easily stop it by protecting the area near the point, rather than chasing away from it. Also viewing it as a second win condition is part of the problem. It's a win condition. It's an easier win condition in some circumstances but it also gives both sides more options. If the only condition was killing Hale then the rounds can and do drag on indefinitely.

Rewarding players for damaging/capping
The current solution you provided probably wouldn't be the best because then the good players will be Saxton more often, leaving the other players waiting longer for their turn. Shouldn't everyone get a turn at being Saxton?

Everyone still would get a turn. Just people who are contributing to making the gameplay more fun and the rounds go faster get rewarded more.

Anyway. Thinking about it more. I've realised the source of issues and flaws. It basically comes down to no in-game incentives or rewards for promoting fast gameplay. If you die first, you get the same queue points as someone who dies last. If you do more damage you get the same queue points as someone who does none. Similarly, if you're Hale, you get no reward for winning quickly or penalty for losing or taking too long.

This leaves us with external (to the game) rewards. Eg players derive enjoyment from killing everyone when they are Hale, they derive enjoyment from being one of the last to survive or making Hale take a long time to kill them. It seems that the unwritten rule about not capping stems from players not wanting to be 'robbed' of their external rewards as Hale.

The other part of the problem is that the average round time is probably about 5 minutes. Everyone in the server gets the same number of queue points per round. Given there's 32 people in the server. This means if no one else leaves and no new players join, it'll be an average of about 30 rounds before a given player can become Hale. Which is about 2 to 2.5 hours of playing roughly. So understandably, people get frustrated when their time as Hale is 'cut short' by someone capping the point.

If we could reduce the average round time to 2.5 minutes it's an hour or so of playing. Still not ideal, but shorter average round times are better for everyone. It means more people being Hale, more people actually playing rather than being dead spectating.

Solutions:
There needs to be some in-game reward to the queue points for certain actions.
1. Reward/Punishment for Hale for winning/losing before/after a certain time. (+/- queue points)
Hale needs an incentive to win which would force him to choose between chasing down silly scouts/spies or capping the point.
2. Reward/Punishment for Players for winning/losing before/after a certain time (+/- queue points)
Players need an incentive to win which would force them to choose between trying to kill Hale or just capping the point
3. Reward for Players for % damage dealt to Hale
Possibility but may not be needed if 1 and 2 are done right.

I'm working on a short excel table to show proposed queue points for various conditions. We want something that is basically like this.


The numbers aren't meant to mean anything really, just the level of reward players should receive to speed the game up. I'm working on some more complex functions but they'll really just satisfy that table. Hale can get the most reward from killing everyone, but also carries the most risk for losing points too. Capturing is less penalising. Players that are alive whilst hale captures should lose points. People that die before the round time should gain some points but would need some function to prevent people just suiciding onto Hale hence a damage function. Players that die after the time should lose points, because they should have been trying to capture.

Simple way to look at it is people that are alive after the time, are going to lose points whilst people that die/win before the time gain points. This provides an incentive for players to complete the objectives or at least try to. Similarly since capture wins are undesirable, the penalty for letting one happen is large, thus you're better off dying trying to stop it, than living.

[PlasmaDavid]

The one time I joined the Hale server, my ears were blasted by the sounds of multiple kiddies. Is there any reason to come and try again and put down my one time to bad luck/timing?

[Fireslide]

It does seem like the demographics of the server is mostly younger kids. Which is probably part of the reason it makes it hard to get any feedback and also why none of them see any wisdom in trying to have faster rounds. Thus my desire to solve it from a game design point of view and let them work out what's optimal (or just tell them).

[PlasmaDavid]

As long as it keeps them there and out of the CSGO Zombie mode maps (when they come!) then I'm happy

[sycotk]

The latest update to the server has left the server with almost no complaints! (Aside from people wanting criticals back.) In my honest opinion the only thing left would be to initiate the game to end in say 30 seconds or so when only 5 players are left. I have asked around on the server many times and they have all agreed it would be good. This would stop games for going too long.

If not then I think that "Last Pyro Standing" (Implemented on other servers) would round off this server to be the best saxton hale server out there!