hellbender wrote:Revisionist nostalgia.
André Axe'm wrote:Its not a problem of morality, its a problem of manners.
Jez wrote:You got no facts
Jez wrote:Moreover, a 2001 report from the director of the Austalian Institute of Criminology opens by saying that: "Australia was a less violent society at the end of the twentieth century than it was at the end of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries." While he goes on to note the difficulty of comparing crime statistics from such different times, I am certainly more likely to take his word over yours when it comes to this kind of discussion.
Jez wrote:Quoting Crime Stats
Jez wrote:If you can't access JSTOR to find those articles, I also found a 1998 set of guidelines from the American Academy of Pediatrics that found much the same thing: "Despite its common acceptance, and even advocacy for its use, spanking is a less effective strategy than time-out or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations."
Jez wrote:In addition, one particular study I found that looks at disciplinary approaches and problems within schools over several decades in the US concluded by saying that: "From this brief review, it is clear that the relationship between school violence and discipline is more complex than we often assume. Focusing on the technology of discipline as a quick fix to problems plaguing schools does not address the deeper malaise affecting the wider system."
"The Status of School Discipline and Violence, A. Troy Adams, American Academy of Political and Social Science" 2000
Jez wrote:As for the human brain I would contest that it is not 'designed' by anyone. You can get immediate compliance from a child by hitting them, and it's certainly easier to hit a child than it is to try and understand why they aren't doing what you want. But while you may get compliance in the short-term, you are also teaching a very influential child that it is acceptable to hit someone if they're doing something that bothers them, you are teaching them to externalise their issues with other people. Meanwhile you're not teaching them how to resolve their issues with another person using words or through thinking about why the other person may not be doing as you expect/think is reasonable.
hellbender wrote:I'm sure there are sources around, but i cant be bothered searching for them. Do you have sources that prove that society has not degraded in certain area's?
hellbender wrote:I also have no doubt that things appear more prevalent because of our media, but that doesn't change the fact that there is more potential for greater behavioural indiscretions now with the web and anonymity allowing no accountability. Furthermore the consequences of the offenders actions are not necessarily seen by the offender, as such there is a form of detachment from their actions.
hellbender wrote:This simply looks at violent behaviour, i have no doubt that australia is a less violent society now. I am talking more about behaviour as discussed by the OP.
hellbender wrote:That can be interpreted in two ways. One being that more people are conducting criminal activities and therefore need to imprisoned or as you say we have taken a harder stance and are imprisoning more people. It could also be a combination of both?? However i'm not talking about criminal activities and behaviour, just unacceptable and moral behaviour.
hellbender wrote:The common thread of these papers is that they base their facts on a trend towards excessive corporal punishment and its effects and draw a conclusion that in general corporal punishment has negative impacts. They also only focus on the statistical range that have had excessive punishment and their aggressive/cruel/violent tendencies. They do not look at other statistical ranges such as the behaviour of children who do not receive any form of corporal punishment at any stage, specifically their attitude in society, behaviour in general towards others, authoritative powers and general discipline.
hellbender wrote:I agree that excessive corporal punishment is bad for a child. I never said that corporal punishment was the only form of disciplinary action that should be used. I stated that emotional pain through deprival of pleasure i.e. video games, food etc is another effective method, i could add time-out to the emotional form of punishment too. I would use physical pain as a last resort or a means for a quick response (i.e. a dangerous situation).
hellbender wrote:This was interesting, i didn't read it all, but it is only drawing a conclusion on violent behaviour and concluding that violent behaviour is not effectively solved at school, but where the source of such violent behaviour comes from. I would have to agree with this, but i am talking in more general terms of discipline.
However, after reading those papers i can see that dealing with teachers impartiality, consistency and restraint is actually the greater problem with corporal punishment in schools. Under the right circumstances and with a well trained teacher corporal punishment is an effective measure of discipline, however as the right circumstances and a well trained teachers are not always attainable i would have to concede that its best not to use corporal punishment in schools.
Also perhaps i should clarify my position on corporal punishment in schools, i do not think methods such as flogging or severe pain should be used. Merely a slap on the wrist with a ruler type punishment. However it would be different at home and have a correlation to the severity of the bad behaviour/action.
hellbender wrote:That is a very simplistic view. Let me start by clarifying that as the child ages, i think the use of smacking them becomes less effective compared to reasoning. Obviously smacking a 16yo is going to have less effect than a 6yo. Also sometimes children do stupid things or bad things just because they can or want to push the boundaries, as such a smack can be more effective. I would also consider that once a child has reached 8-10yo smacking should only be used as a severe punishment and not as a regular form of punishment.
As for externalising issues... the child will only be experiencing such punishment from their parents or adults, not from their peers. Furthermore by reducing the amount of punishment via smacking as the child ages, they is able to associate the act of hitting was to discipline them as children, not as a general means to behave towards others. There is a distinction here, which draws the line on acceptable behaviour towards others who aren't doing what you want etc.
When used responsibly and in the correct manner smacking is an effective and not damaging method of discipline. The negative effects seen when smacking is due to excessive or an incorrect approach.
BorisBC wrote:Pro tip - if you have to spew in a car, spew down the (inside) front of your shirt. Trust me, it's a lot easier to clean spew off yourself than the interior of a car.
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