Valve and Blizzard Make Nice on DotA Name

[Fireslide]

If the problem exists in LoL and riot have been trying to address it for a long time, then what you're arguing against is just what happens to emerge as a good strategy in this genre of game. When you get power/advantage from levelling up and having better items, why risk that advantage by pushing / attacking prematurely? Especially when if you fail, you give a huge advantage to the enemy team.

Dota addressed the farming creeps thing a while ago with reliable/unreliable gold. Killing creeps in a wave or in the jungle gives unreliable gold, which is lost on death. Killing enemy heroes or assisting in kills grants reliable gold, which is not lost on death.

[XViper]

To say otherwise would be to say that controllers (without autoaim) are better than mouse for FPS's because it takes more skill (is just harder because it's not as intuitive) to actually shoot someone with it.

Love this analogy.

I still play HoN quite regularly, but still hate everything about its deny/last hit system. What exe3 says is very true. I haven't played DoTA for ages or DOTA2 at all, but it all still applies in HoN.

You just sit behind your creeps most of the time, not even attacking incase you miss that last crucial hit in order to earn some cash or deny the enemy the same. The heroes don't even fight eachother. It's just a case of trying to get the gold quicker than your opponent in order to have the advantage. People are too scared\smart to get involved in a hero battle should they die and be put even further behind.

There are a whole heap of incentives to last hit and deny creeps, and not a whole lot to do anything else.

This mindset only exists in pubs. As can be seen by watching any pro game or high level player streaming there is HUGE advantages to ganking and pushing towers. Dota hasn't been about 'sitting and farming' since 2008.

80-90% (if not more) of players are likely "pubs".
So the "pros" play it differently, thats really not the point.

[diamondd]

To say otherwise would be to say that controllers (without autoaim) are better than mouse for FPS's because it takes more skill (is just harder because it's not as intuitive) to actually shoot someone with it.

Love this analogy.

I still play HoN quite regularly, but still hate everything about its deny/last hit system. What exe3 says is very true. I haven't played DoTA for ages or DOTA2 at all, but it all still applies in HoN.

You just sit behind your creeps most of the time, not even attacking incase you miss that last crucial hit in order to earn some cash or deny the enemy the same. The heroes don't even fight eachother. It's just a case of trying to get the gold quicker than your opponent in order to have the advantage. People are too scared\smart to get involved in a hero battle should they die and be put even further behind.

There are a whole heap of incentives to last hit and deny creeps, and not a whole lot to do anything else.

This mindset only exists in pubs. As can be seen by watching any pro game or high level player streaming there is HUGE advantages to ganking and pushing towers. Dota hasn't been about 'sitting and farming' since 2008.

this

if you take some initiative and attack how you so desperately want to you'd realise its very effective. The only difference is it requires a bit of teamwork to get the numbers advantage.

[exe3]

This mindset only exists in pubs. As can be seen by watching any pro game or high level player streaming there is HUGE advantages to ganking and pushing towers. Dota hasn't been about 'sitting and farming' since 2008.

this

if you take some initiative and attack how you so desperately want to you'd realise its very effective. The only difference is it requires a bit of teamwork to get the numbers advantage.

Or not this? Ganks are powerful, completely agree, in fact they're so powerful that they're one of the main reasons for lane passivity because if you push and be aggressive you're going to be 'out of position' and 'overextended' opening yourself completely up to ganks. It's why the main strategies involve the desire to be pushed to your own tower as that keeps you nice and safe and puts the enemy out there and very open to ganks.

If the problem exists in LoL and riot have been trying to address it for a long time, then what you're arguing against is just what happens to emerge as a good strategy in this genre of game. When you get power/advantage from levelling up and having better items, why risk that advantage by pushing / attacking prematurely? Especially when if you fail, you give a huge advantage to the enemy team.

I've noted the contradicting points of views (you say don't push, diamondd says to push).

The option to not attack only works when you actually have control of your troops. This is NOT an RTS, you do NOT have control of these troops, you can NOT tell them to hold on while you gather your strength. That is just how the game is (another side effect of being an amateur made mod), what you're doing is pushing against the flow the game dictates. It is ILLEGAL to not push in this game, that is the fact of the design of minions that never stop and forever will charge down the lane no exceptions. If you, as a champion, want to not push that's fine but that won't change what the minions want to do and the genre at large needs to be better built around this push mentality.

And yes, that's the most successful or 'optimum' way to play, that doesn't make it for a second not broken or a poor way to play. For instance, in LoL for example, because there's 5 players but only 4 sources of income the meta has evolved to intentionally have a player take no cs and thus have no income. This creates a player that can't do anything fun in the game because they end up with no items and are thus stuck with ward duties where they just ward the map and then sometimes use a little CC in a team fight. Supports are the ones who get stuck with this role as they're the ones that suffer the least from this unoptimal way to play but some supports can't actually function without gold so they've dropped from all viability despite them being beasts if they actually had gold to buy items with. That's terrible and has left the support class boring to play beyond belief. It should be noted that the only reason this has come to pass is because of the last hit mechanic.

Dota addressed the farming creeps thing a while ago with reliable/unreliable gold. Killing creeps in a wave or in the jungle gives unreliable gold, which is lost on death. Killing enemy heroes or assisting in kills grants reliable gold, which is not lost on death.

Thanks, I was curious over how the unreliable/reliable gold system worked, I thought you just simply lost an amount of gold on death. But still I don't agree, 'unreliable' gold is the most plentiful and as such I don't want to lose it by dieing which in fact makes me want to play even more passively because death is punished even more.

[diamondd]

This mindset only exists in pubs. As can be seen by watching any pro game or high level player streaming there is HUGE advantages to ganking and pushing towers. Dota hasn't been about 'sitting and farming' since 2008.

this

if you take some initiative and attack how you so desperately want to you'd realise its very effective. The only difference is it requires a bit of teamwork to get the numbers advantage.

Or not this? Ganks are powerful, completely agree, in fact they're so powerful that they're one of the main reasons for lane passivity because if you push and be aggressive you're going to be 'out of position' and 'overextended' opening yourself completely up to ganks. It's why the main strategies involve the desire to be pushed to your own tower as that keeps you nice and safe and puts the enemy out there and very open to ganks.

If the problem exists in LoL and riot have been trying to address it for a long time, then what you're arguing against is just what happens to emerge as a good strategy in this genre of game. When you get power/advantage from levelling up and having better items, why risk that advantage by pushing / attacking prematurely? Especially when if you fail, you give a huge advantage to the enemy team.

I've noted the contradicting points of views (you say don't push, diamondd says to push).

The option to not attack only works when you actually have control of your troops. This is NOT an RTS, you do NOT have control of these troops, you can NOT tell them to hold on while you gather your strength. That is just how the game is (another side effect of being an amateur made mod), what you're doing is pushing against the flow the game dictates. It is ILLEGAL to not push in this game, that is the fact of the design of minions that never stop and forever will charge down the lane no exceptions. If you, as a champion, want to not push that's fine but that won't change what the minions want to do and the genre at large needs to be better built around this push mentality.

And yes, that's the most successful or 'optimum' way to play, that doesn't make it for a second not broken or a poor way to play. For instance, in LoL for example, because there's 5 players but only 4 sources of income the meta has evolved to intentionally have a player take no cs and thus have no income. This creates a player that can't do anything fun in the game because they end up with no items and are thus stuck with ward duties where they just ward the map and then sometimes use a little CC in a team fight. Supports are the ones who get stuck with this role as they're the ones that suffer the least from this unoptimal way to play but some supports can't actually function without gold so they've dropped from all viability despite them being beasts if they actually had gold to buy items with. That's terrible and has left the support class boring to play beyond belief. It should be noted that the only reason this has come to pass is because of the last hit mechanic.

Dota addressed the farming creeps thing a while ago with reliable/unreliable gold. Killing creeps in a wave or in the jungle gives unreliable gold, which is lost on death. Killing enemy heroes or assisting in kills grants reliable gold, which is not lost on death.

Thanks, I was curious over how the unreliable/reliable gold system worked, I thought you just simply lost an amount of gold on death. But still I don't agree, 'unreliable' gold is the most plentiful and as such I don't want to lose it by dieing which in fact makes me want to play even more passively because death is punished even more.

no, I said go for kills, you can easily do that without pushing your lane if you know what you're doing

EDIT: 2nd bold, I love it how you come to complain about dota and then end up giving an example of the most "broken" gameplay yet and its straight out of lol.

[exe3]

1. My bad.

2. Um, I was responding to something he was directly referring to LoL about? Was I suppose to ignore him or something? Oh and no, I didn't, I came in criticizing the genre as a whole and how it stands right now.

3. Calm down.

[diamondd]

1. My bad.

2. Um, I was responding to something he was directly referring to LoL about? Was I suppose to ignore him or something? Oh and no, I didn't, I came in criticizing the genre as a whole and how it stands right now.

3. Calm down.

just starting to get a little sick of the same old troop of arm chair experts coming in putting their 2 cents worth.

the last hitting and denying debate around here is getting pretty tired, at the very least its here to stay in dota, deal with it.

[exe3]

You mean like yourself?

And yeah, it's here to stay. I was just giving some off handed comments that i want someone to expand this genre to fix these flaws and then the discussion started.

[diamondd]

You mean like yourself?

And yeah, it's here to stay. I was just giving some off handed comments that i want someone to expand this genre to fix these flaws and then the discussion started.

That's rich, considering you're the one who comes into every dota thread to complain about how bad the mechanics are. No one cares, I don't hunt down every LoL conversation on here to rubbish it for the sake of stirring the pot.

[exe3]

Except as i've stated i'm criticizing the genre in general and it's kind of my thing to look deep into a game and talk about what I felt was done wrong. I didn't come here specifically to rag on something but people started asking question and making statements and in the spirit of discussion I made rebuttals. If it bothers you so much maybe you should stop replying?

And don't pretend you're not being an 'armchair expert' either. I'm done with these squabbles, i'll talk over real discussion but not over nonsense like this.

Lastly it's ironic how my first post in this thread was actually praise for DOTA2, fancy that aye?

[Spectral]

The game obviously isn't for exe3. Can't be bothered arguing with someone who thinks they are always right.

[Nekosan]

The game obviously isn't for exe3. Can't be bothered arguing with someone who thinks they are always right.

AHAHAHA... the irony in that is staggering.

[diamondd]

the problem we have that you guys like to say that feature x shouldn't be in dota.

the fact is, whether feature x is sensible, elegant, essential, etc or not isn't important. x is a part of dota and therefore should be part of dota2. If you want to talk mechanics and what you think would make a perfect MOBA game in your mind then fine but please leave the negative talk about dota2 accomplishing exactly what its set out to do to yourself.

dota2 is only trying to be an graphical and user interface upgrade for the die-hard dota fans and its absolutely fantastic in that regard. If Valve wanted to make a game that played with he mechanics they would have to think of a new title.

its the same as starcraft 2, that's brought very little to the table outside of a few extra units. It hasn't tried to do anything crazy with the power of modern engines and its all the better for it.

[Nekosan]

its the same as starcraft 2, that's brought very little to the table outside of a few extra units. It hasn't tried to do anything crazy with the power of modern engines and its all the better for it.

Starcraft 2 is an entirely different matter, it also contained a single player campaign and was totally rebalanced, putting a "2" on the end of the title implies that it's a sequel and unless you're talking about Evil Dead then a sequel generally implies something new rather than the same thing with different special effects.

[diamondd]

its the same as starcraft 2, that's brought very little to the table outside of a few extra units. It hasn't tried to do anything crazy with the power of modern engines and its all the better for it.

Starcraft 2 is an entirely different matter, it also contained a single player campaign and was totally rebalanced, putting a "2" on the end of the title implies that it's a sequel and unless you're talking about Evil Dead then a sequel generally implies something new rather than the same thing with different special effects.

it also wasn't free to play though and considering how short the campaign was I don't know how much weight that argument really holds.

I don't know why anyone would expect the world from dota2. It'll still more than likely have new heroes added down the track and they can still add new maps similar to the CTF thing LoL has. Its still only a beta.