Fireslide wrote:Denying and last hitting comes off as unintuitive because of the way the game is presented to someone unfamiliar, with the approriate aesthetics and presentation, it'd seem perfectly normal. People had trouble with how the spy could function in TF2 before the art direction changed to cartoony, then it just fit more naturally and no one questioned it. Last hitting and denying could easily go through the same thing (using the example I posted above as a rough starting point)
No it wouldn't, or at least not as much as you seem to think it would. Doesn't matter how you visually represent it, a poor illogical concept is still just that no matter how you try to pretty it up.
It makes logical sense considering the overall goal of the game. The goal of the game is to destroy the enemy throne. This doesn't happen because the creeps do all the work, it happens because the heroes do all the work. The creeps are just meat tanks with a bit of low damage. Denying the enemy experience prevents them from getting an advantage to destroy your throne, it also prevents them from getting gold to get items, to get an advantage, to destroy your throne.
No, that's what the goal of the game is
suppose to be. You're supposed to be a powerful general of sorts amongst the armies helping them push and take out defenses and fighting off enemy generals while you're at it. No, what the
actual goal of the game is, in the way it's been designed, is resource denial, pure and simple. You deny the enemy their resources and grow your own in a PvE style of gameplay against static enemies who don't even flipping fight you or do anything even remotely threatening or interesting until you have the resources to purchase items that put you ahead of the enemy. You gain your advantage from a stale PvE game of 'whack-a-mole' as it was described rather than from successful engagements in fun team fights against other champions or from taking objectives. Yes you can get the items form just these team fights but the fact is that the most effective way, and more importantly, THE WAY THE GAME IS ACTUALLY PLAYED BY PLAYERS is via this PvE style of resource denial.
As gameplay mechanics they are actually good things. They add a skill component to the game. Without last hitting, or denying. There's not much differentiation between bad players and good players, or good players and great players. Without, games could often come down to who choose the better heroes at the start. By having a mechanic that requires a dexterity/timing component that needs to be performed all game, it lets good players and great players stand out, and as a competitive game with spectators, that's a good thing to have.
Yes it adds skill, in the same way that only being able to select 12 units at a time in Starcraft required skill. Doesn't change the fact that this was brought on by broken mechanics and engine limitations. The hardcore Korean players hated Blizzard for allowing you to select more units and made the same dumb arguments about dropping the skill level and that somehow, magically, there will be no skill differentiation. They even demanded that Blizzard limit unit selection to 12 units, that's disgusting and they have no idea.
Skill isn't about wrestling with broken controls or mechanics in an attempt to have them actually perform an action, true skill is about mastering a system that intuitively provides you with the same strategic options, it's about what you DO with said strategic options, not whether you are capable of even performing them.
To say otherwise would be to say that controllers (without autoaim) are better than mouse for FPS's because it takes more skill (is just harder because it's not as intuitive) to actually shoot someone with it.
Nekosan wrote:What game are you playing? DOTA 2 is a direct clone of the previous mod, the game has added NOTHING to what was already there aside from better graphics and a slightly better buy system (which is still worse than the LoL one), the way the game balances with support/heavy carries etc is just old and **** and I know that personally after playing LoL I just find it to be really bad, it's like putting someone who normally drives a high end 2012 Volvo into a 1960's model Volvo and expecting them to enjoy it.
I was VERY disappointed with the beta, there's just nothing new there, I expect sequels to add SOMETHING worthwhile to the game but DOTA 2 is just a cashgrab, it's going to sell because of the name and nostalgia for some players but I honestly doubt it will whip League of Legends, they've advanced MOBA gameplay too much since the DOTA days for it to be appealing to anyone but the crazed.
I honestly think that was a troll post.
Not a troll post just a complete misunderstanding.
When I say feature complete I don't mean in terms of gameplay, I mean in terms of things like replays, spectators, general polish and out of game features, a consistent level of graphical quality as well (compare Ashe, Yi, Nidalee, Sivir to Fiora, Maokai, Lulu, Varus or the graphical quality between Summoner's Rift and Dominion, the old content, ewww, just ewwww). They only JUST released spectator mode properly after the game being out of beta for
2 years despite DOTA2 being in beta and having it. Who knows where the hell replays are and when they're going to be released despite again DOTA2 having replays fully functional in their
beta.
Let's also not forget just the sheer lack of polish most of the game has, I mean they had to intentionally cripple a character while they worked on a remake for an entire system for a game mechanic (Eve and Stealth) not to mention all the other characters that need reworks (Heim, Karma is getting hers soon, Mundo as well and more).
Also in DOTA2's defense that's the point, DOTA2 isn't a sequel sequel, it's there mainly to bring the exact same gameplay to a standalone platform with a ton of out of game features (spectator, replays etc) as well as greater overall polish such as better graphics. Also I agree that DOTA2 as a game is pretty on the average side, the people who made it were amateur modders and it shows because character designs have a complete lack of restraint and I have seen far too many filler passive abilities in the characters i've played so far.
Also it's going free to play so your comment about it selling isn't exactly applicable. >_>
Just calm down, don't let blind rage blind your judgement and realize the point I was making. I assume you didn't notice I was the one making the comments against DOTA2 on the second page.
And yeah that buy system, just wtf...though LoL's is far from perfect either and Riot are actually looking at making a new one.
Last hitting is a good thing, denying not so much IMO, I used to enjoy it but having played LoL for a while I'm convinced that denying ruins the early game of a MOBA, between both mechanics players spend too much time focused on their creeps an not enough on the enemy so the play for the first 15 minutes gets stagnant.
When LoL ditched the denying idea it made the first 10+ minutes of the game more of a real test of skill IMO, play is more about outwitting/outplaying the opposing enemy heroes rather than some mindless whack-a-mole simulator with a tiny bit of added poke. The ability for a better player to shine is still there, it just manifests itself in the more enjoyable player vs player aspect of the game.
I disagree in that last hitting is still bad, maybe it's the lesser of the two evils but that whack-a-mole gameplay is very much still there.
