Valve and Blizzard Make Nice on DotA Name

[exe3]

Dota2 is far behind on all fronts. IceFrog is just some basement kid turned internet star because he knew how to balance a mod. He tried to force all the limitations of the original dota into dota2 which has caused most people to leave the game.. even put on extra latency for everyone (although fixed now I think).

I think the biggest problem is that it's still just a mod. Mods as games are always poor, almost no exceptions. They can bring about new and innovative ways to play games and can be fun but as a game these innovative features are often poorly implemented or flawed in some way and generally lack the polish of professionals because mod teams are ultimately just amateurs. Dota suffers from this particularly with archaic features like last hitting and denying appearing solely because of how the Warcraft 3 engine works and no other reason what so ever.

Blizzard All-Stars should be the first Moba to actually take the whole genre back to scratch and make a good, logical game out of the concept. Everyone else has mostly copied the Dota formula flaws and all without realizing those flaws are detrimental to the game and in general are just poor design (to win this game I must push and destroy the enemy base so for a good chunk of the game let's actively not push...also I enjoy murdering my own troops).

[Cyrinno]

I agree, there needs to be change.

[Spooler]

Yes I really hope for the genre to move forward a little. I'm almost sick of the maps which are all just the same as they use to be in DOTA. I want map variety with the gameplay of DOTA.

Play super monday night combat the genre has moved foward

[Fireslide]

Denying is just a game mechanic that evolved from the WC3 engine, but has become an integral part of the game. If you want an aesthetic gameplay reason for it that make sense try this.

When you last hit a unit on your side, you don't kill it, but use your energy/magic whatever to save it from death and teleport it back to a healing place. This process denies the enemy the full experience of killing as well as any gold it was carrying. All that's missing is some visuals/sound effects so it's obvious that is what happens. This happens with heroes and towers similarly etc.

Basically the entire game/laning phase you're trying to prevent your units from dying needlessly at the hand of the enemy heroes unless you're ready to actually push. By last hitting you ensure the unit is suffering a true death and are rewarded by collecting it's bounty, again magically.

There. I've come up with a reason it can make sense. They aren't flaws in the game. They are just options. The aim of the game is to destroy the enemy throne/ancient whatever. There's multiple ways of achieving that. You either push really early and as quick as possible, or you have a team that's designed around delaying the other team whilst one of your heroes becomes incredibly powerful.

Take PAYDAY: The Heist, aim of the game is to rob the bank. If you try the first mission and go in guns blazing. You generally fail quickly. So you spend the first few minutes planning, preparing, getting into position. DotA is the same. You want to destroy the enemy throne. But you have to plan, prepare, get strong enough etc to do it right.

[libbaz]

I dont know why some people will take this to mean Blizzard lost, or backed down. I take it to mean Valve offered them an absurd amount of money and they settled.

Personally I don't think either party have any strong claim. Both stand on thin ground legally. Community Mod commercialisation is a messy game.

[diamondd]

Denying is just a game mechanic that evolved from the WC3 engine, but has become an integral part of the game. If you want an aesthetic gameplay reason for it that make sense try this.

When you last hit a unit on your side, you don't kill it, but use your energy/magic whatever to save it from death and teleport it back to a healing place. This process denies the enemy the full experience of killing as well as any gold it was carrying. All that's missing is some visuals/sound effects so it's obvious that is what happens. This happens with heroes and towers similarly etc.

Basically the entire game/laning phase you're trying to prevent your units from dying needlessly at the hand of the enemy heroes unless you're ready to actually push. By last hitting you ensure the unit is suffering a true death and are rewarded by collecting it's bounty, again magically.

There. I've come up with a reason it can make sense. They aren't flaws in the game. They are just options. The aim of the game is to destroy the enemy throne/ancient whatever. There's multiple ways of achieving that. You either push really early and as quick as possible, or you have a team that's designed around delaying the other team whilst one of your heroes becomes incredibly powerful.

Take PAYDAY: The Heist, aim of the game is to rob the bank. If you try the first mission and go in guns blazing. You generally fail quickly. So you spend the first few minutes planning, preparing, getting into position. DotA is the same. You want to destroy the enemy throne. But you have to plan, prepare, get strong enough etc to do it right.

That's not a bad scenario actually but I still don't think you'll convince exe3 unfortunately

[exe3]

Denying is just a game mechanic that evolved from the WC3 engine, but has become an integral part of the game. If you want an aesthetic gameplay reason for it that make sense try this.

When you last hit a unit on your side, you don't kill it, but use your energy/magic whatever to save it from death and teleport it back to a healing place. This process denies the enemy the full experience of killing as well as any gold it was carrying. All that's missing is some visuals/sound effects so it's obvious that is what happens. This happens with heroes and towers similarly etc.

Basically the entire game/laning phase you're trying to prevent your units from dying needlessly at the hand of the enemy heroes unless you're ready to actually push. By last hitting you ensure the unit is suffering a true death and are rewarded by collecting it's bounty, again magically.

There. I've come up with a reason it can make sense. They aren't flaws in the game. They are just options. The aim of the game is to destroy the enemy throne/ancient whatever. There's multiple ways of achieving that. You either push really early and as quick as possible, or you have a team that's designed around delaying the other team whilst one of your heroes becomes incredibly powerful.

Take PAYDAY: The Heist, aim of the game is to rob the bank. If you try the first mission and go in guns blazing. You generally fail quickly. So you spend the first few minutes planning, preparing, getting into position. DotA is the same. You want to destroy the enemy throne. But you have to plan, prepare, get strong enough etc to do it right.

*Jackie Chan face*

What is this I don't even. I don't care about any 'story' reason for killing your own troops, I only phrased it that way for dramatic effect. The only thing that I care about is that denying is BAD GAMEPLAY. It serves a purpose yes but that doesn't change the fact that it's unintuitive and a terrible interaction that isn't actually fun and makes no logical sense considering the actual overall goals of the game. I'm actually watching a Blizzard video atm on their game and they're going through the issues that the genre currently has and they explain well (if briefly) why things like last hitting is such a bad mechanic.

And no Payday and Dota are not the same, at least not for your comparison to last hitting and denying. You can't compare the menial task of resource generation to that of the actual planning and execution of a combat strategy which Mobas atm already have and do well.

Just because you're used to a poor mechanic and it does technically have a purpose doesn't mean that mechanic isn't bad, and it's interactions bad, and those who have mastered and have experienced it for the longest times have the hardest time letting go and accepting this.

That's not a bad scenario actually but I still don't think you'll convince exe3 unfortunately

Would that be because i'm hard to convince or because the arguments made are weak?

Yes I really hope for the genre to move forward a little. I'm almost sick of the maps which are all just the same as they use to be in DOTA. I want map variety with the gameplay of DOTA.

Play super monday night combat the genre has moved foward

Monday night Combat was fun. I need to play it again, last time I played it I raged at massive lag but little did I know it wasn't the game causing it but the congestion I had started to get last year. :/

Would you recommend going the Super version over the standard version? I believe Super is free to play but I already own the original.

Also that's a 3rd person shooter variant of the genre, we're talking more for the traditional Dota Action RPG variant that really needs a revolution.

I agree, there needs to be change.

As I watch the Blizzard video I mentioned above i'm starting to worry that Blizzard All-Stars won't be the game we're looking for. They're making heaps of smart decisions on long standing existing problems like last hitting but at the same time they're oversimplifying the game like crazy. They have very few items because they have very few stats. There's no armor or anything, just health. No attack speed modification. I think Blizzard All-stars is actually going to fail because they're pushing things too far in simplifying and streamlining the game. I like a lot of their decisions and goals so far but character stats is something they're making a big mistake on imo and it's going to cripple the replayability and depth of the game I think.

[diamondd]

That's not a bad scenario actually but I still don't think you'll convince exe3 unfortunately

Would that be because i'm hard to convince or because the arguments made are weak?

meh, bit of both?

last hitting is an important mechanic, like it or not. We've been here before so that's enough from me

[Fireslide]

It serves a purpose yes but that doesn't change the fact that it's unintuitive and a terrible interaction that isn't actually fun and makes no logical sense considering the actual overall goals of the game.

Denying and last hitting comes off as unintuitive because of the way the game is presented to someone unfamiliar, with the approriate aesthetics and presentation, it'd seem perfectly normal. People had trouble with how the spy could function in TF2 before the art direction changed to cartoony, then it just fit more naturally and no one questioned it. Last hitting and denying could easily go through the same thing (using the example I posted above as a rough starting point)

It makes logical sense considering the overall goal of the game. The goal of the game is to destroy the enemy throne. This doesn't happen because the creeps do all the work, it happens because the heroes do all the work. The creeps are just meat tanks with a bit of low damage. Denying the enemy experience prevents them from getting an advantage to destroy your throne, it also prevents them from getting gold to get items, to get an advantage, to destroy your throne.

As gameplay mechanics they are actually good things. They add a skill component to the game. Without last hitting, or denying. There's not much differentiation between bad players and good players, or good players and great players. Without, games could often come down to who choose the better heroes at the start. By having a mechanic that requires a dexterity/timing component that needs to be performed all game, it lets good players and great players stand out, and as a competitive game with spectators, that's a good thing to have.

[Nekosan]

There are so many DOTA type games these days that I think playing DOTA 2 isn't as big as it use to be. Even Valve I believe are behind the game on this one and are on catch up.

How so? Feature complete wise it blows LoL away and it's clear if you play LoL and pay attention to the patch notes that they're playing catch up to Dota2 in many ways. The main thing I dislike about Dota2 feature wise is that they're practically copying the way the War3 engine worked.

What game are you playing? DOTA 2 is a direct clone of the previous mod, the game has added NOTHING to what was already there aside from better graphics and a slightly better buy system (which is still worse than the LoL one), the way the game balances with support/heavy carries etc is just old and **** and I know that personally after playing LoL I just find it to be really bad, it's like putting someone who normally drives a high end 2012 Volvo into a 1960's model Volvo and expecting them to enjoy it.

I was VERY disappointed with the beta, there's just nothing new there, I expect sequels to add SOMETHING worthwhile to the game but DOTA 2 is just a cashgrab, it's going to sell because of the name and nostalgia for some players but I honestly doubt it will whip League of Legends, they've advanced MOBA gameplay too much since the DOTA days for it to be appealing to anyone but the crazed.

I honestly think that was a troll post.

As gameplay mechanics they are actually good things. They add a skill component to the game. Without last hitting, or denying. There's not much differentiation between bad players and good players, or good players and great players. Without, games could often come down to who choose the better heroes at the start. By having a mechanic that requires a dexterity/timing component that needs to be performed all game, it lets good players and great players stand out, and as a competitive game with spectators, that's a good thing to have.

Last hitting is a good thing, denying not so much IMO, I used to enjoy it but having played LoL for a while I'm convinced that denying ruins the early game of a MOBA, between both mechanics players spend too much time focused on their creeps an not enough on the enemy so the play for the first 15 minutes gets stagnant.

When LoL ditched the denying idea it made the first 10+ minutes of the game more of a real test of skill IMO, play is more about outwitting/outplaying the opposing enemy heroes rather than some mindless whack-a-mole simulator with a tiny bit of added poke. The ability for a better player to shine is still there, it just manifests itself in the more enjoyable player vs player aspect of the game.

[diamondd]

When LoL ditched the denying idea it made the first 10+ minutes of the game more of a real test of skill IMO, play is more about outwitting/outplaying the opposing enemy heroes rather than some mindless whack-a-mole simulator with a tiny bit of added poke. The ability for a better player to shine is still there, it just manifests itself in the more enjoyable player vs player aspect of the game.

dota is entirely about this as well.

as important as last hitting is it takes a big back seat to first, second, third bloods and beyond. I've gone entire games only denying one creep and we've still won.

It's there as an option but unless you're playing Na'Vi its far from essential.

[Shinanigans]

I'm just playing catchup here with this whole thing so forgive my ignorance, but is this correct?

1) Mod team makes "DOTA" mod for Warcraft 3.
2) Valve creates sequel "DOTA 2" in cooperation with the mods original creator (IceFrog).

Did Blizzard have any official ties with the original DOTA?

[sifter132]

Just thank god an agreement was reached - who would rabid fanboys have sided with?? The hallowed Blizzard or the holy Valve? Perhaps the anointed one himself, the most divine and sacrosanct of us mortals, Notch, could have been involved somehow...maybe playing Guild Wars 2 somehow...

[diamondd]

I'm just playing catchup here with this whole thing so forgive my ignorance, but is this correct?

1) Mod team makes "DOTA" mod for Warcraft 3.
2) Valve creates sequel "DOTA 2" in cooperation with the mods original creator (IceFrog).

Did Blizzard have any official ties with the original DOTA?

pretty much, but IceFrog wasn't the original creator. He just came in and took over basically, I'm not exactly sure about those circumstances but by most people's accounts he's brought balance to the force so to speak and dota really took off.

as far as I know Blizzard don't really have any claim to the name at all, sure it ran on their game but I think they just feel entitled to it for some reason. Like people have said, if they wanted to try and commercialise it counter strike style they had their chance.

[Stewge]

Being a former DOTA player I've played/beta'd/bought the big new ones (HoN, LoL, Demigod...geez that was terrible, DOTA2) and I honestly think that DOTA just needs to die and become a memory of what was great with the WC3 engine. Don't get me wrong, it was great back in the day, but it's simply archaic now. It's like saying someone should remake Doom exactly how it was. Sure, it was great back in the day, but many of the concepts just don't work any more.

In the last year I've rejoined LoL (fizzled a bit due to the transition from uni to full-time work etc) and it's been great. I was actually drawn in by the metagame and to be honest, the mechanics of LoL allow for a much more interesting game. Quite simply, there's more variables which means more variety. When I played DOTA/HON there was always only a few builds for each champ, that was it. LoL has that ability to surprise people every time with that "OMG that champ/build is OP" when you least expect it, but at the same time, no champ is truly more overpowered than another to the point where they can't ever be countered in some form.

LoL is also good in that being a newbie to the game mechanics is way less punishing (community excluded because lets face it, these are all competitive games and all of the pub communities suck). LoL has that "easy to play, hard to master" factor. A new player doesn't need to understand the concept of last hitting, jungling etc. to at least make some sort of contribution. Unless you actually disconnect for 10 minutes, you're unlikely to get so far behind that winning is impossible.

In DOTA1/2, without a background levelling system everyone is plonked on the same field and you get massive skill differentiations. Even being a seasoned LoL player and having a background in DOTA itself, I still got my **** handed to me in DOTA2 (nevermind the horrid lag). After the first kill it was all over, no safety of the tower and once you're pushed out of lane that's no farm for you, ever. Once a good player gets the upper hand combined with the deny mechanic they can freeze a lane anywhere they want making so they get even further ahead. This simply doesn't happen in LoL due to smaller map, no creep denying and stronger towers. I can't imagine what would happen if a completely new player was dropped into that situation

It's not DOTA 2. It's DOTA 1.5. It's exactly the same by design which will be its failing. I can't help but think DOTA 2 is just a quick cash-in (yes it's a free game but you can be damn sure it'll be monetised some how).