Fireslide wrote:Denying is just a game mechanic that evolved from the WC3 engine, but has become an integral part of the game. If you want an aesthetic gameplay reason for it that make sense try this.
When you last hit a unit on your side, you don't kill it, but use your energy/magic whatever to save it from death and teleport it back to a healing place. This process denies the enemy the full experience of killing as well as any gold it was carrying. All that's missing is some visuals/sound effects so it's obvious that is what happens. This happens with heroes and towers similarly etc.
Basically the entire game/laning phase you're trying to prevent your units from dying needlessly at the hand of the enemy heroes unless you're ready to actually push. By last hitting you ensure the unit is suffering a true death and are rewarded by collecting it's bounty, again magically.
There. I've come up with a reason it can make sense. They aren't flaws in the game. They are just options. The aim of the game is to destroy the enemy throne/ancient whatever. There's multiple ways of achieving that. You either push really early and as quick as possible, or you have a team that's designed around delaying the other team whilst one of your heroes becomes incredibly powerful.
Take PAYDAY: The Heist, aim of the game is to rob the bank. If you try the first mission and go in guns blazing. You generally fail quickly. So you spend the first few minutes planning, preparing, getting into position. DotA is the same. You want to destroy the enemy throne. But you have to plan, prepare, get strong enough etc to do it right.
*Jackie Chan face*
What is this I don't even. I don't care about any 'story' reason for killing your own troops, I only phrased it that way for dramatic effect. The only thing that I care about is that denying is BAD GAMEPLAY. It serves a purpose yes but that doesn't change the fact that it's unintuitive and a terrible interaction that isn't actually fun and makes no logical sense considering the actual overall goals of the game. I'm actually watching a Blizzard video atm on their game and they're going through the issues that the genre currently has and they explain well (if briefly) why things like last hitting is such a bad mechanic.
And no Payday and Dota are not the same, at least not for your comparison to last hitting and denying. You can't compare the menial task of resource generation to that of the actual planning and execution of a combat strategy which Mobas atm already have and do well.
Just because you're used to a poor mechanic and it does technically have a purpose
doesn't mean that mechanic isn't bad, and it's interactions bad, and those who have mastered and have experienced it for the longest times have the hardest time letting go and accepting this.
That's not a bad scenario actually but I still don't think you'll convince exe3 unfortunately
Would that be because i'm hard to convince or because the arguments made are weak?
Cyrinno wrote:Yes I really hope for the genre to move forward a little. I'm almost sick of the maps which are all just the same as they use to be in DOTA. I want map variety with the gameplay of DOTA.
Play super monday night combat the genre has moved foward
Monday night Combat was fun. I need to play it again, last time I played it I raged at massive lag but little did I know it wasn't the game causing it but the congestion I had started to get last year. :/
Would you recommend going the Super version over the standard version? I believe Super is free to play but I already own the original.
Also that's a 3rd person shooter variant of the genre, we're talking more for the traditional Dota Action RPG variant that really needs a revolution.
Cyrinno wrote:I agree, there needs to be change.
As I watch the Blizzard video I mentioned above i'm starting to worry that Blizzard All-Stars won't be the game we're looking for. They're making heaps of smart decisions on long standing existing problems like last hitting but at the same time they're oversimplifying the game like crazy. They have very few items because they have very few stats. There's no armor or anything, just health. No attack speed modification. I think Blizzard All-stars is actually going to fail because they're pushing things too far in simplifying and streamlining the game. I like a lot of their decisions and goals so far but character stats is something they're making a big mistake on imo and it's going to cripple the replayability and depth of the game I think.