Legal Opinion: How Cloud Gaming Turned Piracy Into Espionage

[exe3]

Or you misunderstood what I meant by 'how so'. You imply an immense amount of work when it shouldn't be any more work than any other game that has sp and mp.

[Marius]

But to do what you're suggesting in the first place - change the code enough to make the single player vastly different so item hacks don't work in multiplayer, requires a completely different set of server files.

Most games with separate single and multi player have the core underlying files the same.

[TRB]

Why would there be any difference in the code from SP to MP as far as gameplay goes?
If you're logged in using a cloud stored profile then you can trade items.
If you aren't logged in on a cloud stored profile, you can't.

whats the issue?

people can hack items all they want in 'offline mode', doesn't mean they can trade them with other people or profiles online, since an offline character wouldn't be allowed to log into a multiplayer environment.

offline character = local save
online character = cloud save.

Seems you people don't have much idea how easy it is to make things work this way.
Its no different then the separation of character data from an offline [or local as its called] character in NWN2 and the character data saved on a NWN2 server with the exception that in this case the game company would be running the server, not some random person.

Its almost seems to me like Marius is trying to obfuscate the issue in the hopes that people debate his false dichotomy [that there has to be some 'vast difference' between the two] rather then realise the real lack of complexity.

ME3 single player - saves stored locally
ME3 multiplayer - saves stored remotely.
yet the game data for both is local, the same files in fact

Its just that simple.

[Marius]

No the issue is what I mentioned in my article.

Blizzard's server files are secrets, therefore they won't just give them out in the single player client.

That would be incredibly dumb from a business perspective.

Blizzard have also said this in their interviews - that they don't want anyone getting their hands on the server files. To avoid this problem they'd have to use completely different files and patches between single player and multiplayer.

people can hack items all they want in 'offline mode', doesn't mean they can trade them with other people or profiles online, since an offline character wouldn't be allowed to log into a multiplayer environment.

The problem is more that by having the same game client online and offline, hacks can be perfected offline before being brought online, as Blizzard has said.

[TRB]

Yeah because I hear games like ME3 with multiplayer saves on the cloud are having their servers hacked.

You do realise that there is no need for any 'server files' to be stored locally for a single player component, right?

All the save data and incoming AI data is already coming across the local network and can be captured by anyone so inclined.
Having an AI routine [an their AI is nothing special to be sure] and a local save doesn't somehow let people hack their servers or item mall.

The game doesn't stream over the internet any more then something like BF3, yet BF3 single player works just fine without a connection and somehow the BF3 master servers aren't hacked?

All proprietary back-end server software is "a secret", D3 is nothing special in that regard.

I'm actually not sure [from reading your last point] if you know what a 'client' is in terms of software.
a 'client' is by definition offline, it is stored locally.
that 'client data' is already going to be installed on every computer where someone plays D3.
You can't hack a server by using the client offline in single player any more then you could the online variant, in fact there are less options since in an offline capacity you can't even use code injection to spoof packets, since there aren't any packets.

It really does sound like you're not familiar with how this stuff works.

[Mekon]

I'm actually not sure [from reading your last point] if you know what a 'client' is in terms of software.

Well, you apparently don't.

a 'client' is by definition offline, it is stored locally.

A client is an application or system that accesses a service made available by a server. The server is often (but not always) on another computer system, in which case the client accesses the service by way of a network. The term was first applied to devices that were not capable of running their own stand-alone programs, but could interact with remote computers via a network. These dumb terminals were clients of the time-sharing mainframe computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_(computing)

[Marius]

I'm actually not sure [from reading your last point] if you know what a 'client' is in terms of software.
a 'client' is by definition offline, it is stored locally.
that 'client data' is already going to be installed on every computer where someone plays D3.
You can't hack a server by using the client offline in single player any more then you could the online variant, in fact there are less options since in an offline capacity you can't even use code injection to spoof packets, since there aren't any packets.

It really does sound like you're not familiar with how this stuff works.

Well instead of criticising me, why don't you go send Blizzard's developers an email about it? I'm just quoting what they said in their recent video interviews.

Here, view this video and fast forward to 5:45.

http://games.on.net/article/15544/Video ... y_and_More

Here's a quote from the video by D3's game director:

Our games have a server-client architecture. You take that and you allow offline play... you have to put the server architecture into the build that you give to players. So once you have that server architecture it's way easier to hack it. Where a lot of the item duping issues for D2... probably the number one complaint people had about D2. So being able to make it online-only makes it a lot easier for us to be able to deal with security issues.

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to stoop to questioning my understanding of the issue.

If you disagree with Blizzard's technical interpretation, then say why, but be prepared to have good data to back it up, because they have a lot of credibility. Blizzard being the makers of the actual program know more about the game security issues than either of us.

[Spooler]

a 'client' is by definition offline, it is stored locally.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Post of the year !

O wait you were serious ? ahhh my god you cannot make this stuff up, you sir win the dunce cap.

[TRB]

a 'client' is by definition offline, it is stored locally.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Post of the year !

O wait you were serious ? ahhh my god you cannot make this stuff up, you sir win the dunce cap.

No, the client is the part you already have on your end, it connects to the server.
The client remains even when you're offline, it doesn't stream all its content from the server.

Thats why you have to install D3 client.

[TRB]

Here's a quote from the video by D3's game director:

Our games have a server-client architecture. You take that and you allow offline play... you have to put the server architecture into the build that you give to players. So once you have that server architecture it's way easier to hack it. Where a lot of the item duping issues for D2... probably the number one complaint people had about D2. So being able to make it online-only makes it a lot easier for us to be able to deal with security issues.

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to stoop to questioning my understanding of the issue.

If you disagree with Blizzard's technical interpretation, then say why, but be prepared to have good data to back it up, because they have a lot of credibility. Blizzard being the makers of the actual program know more about the game security issues than either of us.

What makes them special? why does their game NEED the server architecture installed with the client when other games dont?

Why aren't all the other games that have online store on the cloud and offline stored locally getting their 'servers' hacked?

Why haven't people been able to log into NWN2 servers and use their offline character with all the pimped out gear without the server being specifically set to allow it?

[Spooler]

No, the client is the part you already have on your end, it connects to the server.
The client remains even when you're offline, it doesn't stream all its content from the server.

Thats why you have to install D3 client.

Client = your PC the files are only there to understand the packets and give you the desired information in the format you want it. The client IS your end server is the other end that the client is connecting to.

Client is not offline that is silly.

a client program is not a client

[Toby McCasker]

Toasting in epic bread. This has gotta be the most comments I've ever seen on a GoN thingo. Jeeeeebus, Patrick

[DarkMellie]

Seems you people don't have much idea how easy it is to make things work this way.

O wait you were serious ? ahhh my god you cannot make this stuff up, you sir win the dunce cap.

I wonder if a day will come where it's possible to have an open exchange of views on the internet without people getting all pissy. Comments like the above (sorry chaps, you were the two most readily to hand) are really unnecessary

[TRB]

Client is not offline that is silly.

a client program is not a client

Is the game client uninstalled every time you lose connection?
no
It is on your PC even when offline, thus in this context the game client is offline, rather then being a 'thin client' where the server does everything and your end only displays the results.


I higly doubt they're running enough server hardware to do all the CPU work for a million + game instances.
MMOs can do it where much of the game world is 'open', but thats not how this game is.

You can try to argue semantics about "program client" Vs "client", but its pretty clear what was being talked about in the context of this thread where the discussion was client side Vs server side and how [as marius said] there would have to be "vast" changes in how the game works to support an offline mode.

and I pointed out there loads of games successfully run offline modes where the save data can't be used in the online game and yet those games aren't suddenly getting their server side hacked.

[Marius]

My comment was simply that Blizzard doesn't want to give out the server in the client software, as their quote said.

Given that they don't want to do that, any offline server would have to be quite different to accomplish that aim.

Regardless of whether you think the issue is easy to solve, Blizzard have a different view, and since they made D3 and BattleNet, I'm inclined to trust them.