Mellie's Random Game Discussion Thread

[Disco LT]

I like Night Elves Having fun so far though.. really have NFI what I'm doing but hey, I managed to kill some douchebag Horde that kept trying to gank me.

[exe3]

The sole purpose of dota 2 is to offer the same gameplay experience with modern features and a few extras to soften the learning curve.

Modern features to me also includes updates to the core game that achieve the same gameplay goals but in a far more intuitive way. Anything else is keeping things the same for the sake of keeping them the same. Do not be afraid of change especially if it doesn't change the game itself but instead improves on it.

And Dota 2 graphics are bad. They're nice to look at sure but in their ability to function and show you what is happening on screen they're an abysmal failure.

lol is fundamentally a simpler game, for example the champions don't really fall under any particular team roles

Honestly no, Dota I can imagine actually, the way stats work in Dota (from my admittedly very limited experience so far) it looked as if you'd want to build every stat anyway (your abilities don't even get enhanced from items so why build mage?). In LoL however champions have very specific roles (5 general roles compared to Dota's 3 in fact) and if you think otherwise you mustn't have played LoL much. Some champions can build multiple ways which drastically change their roles and abilities depending on how you build (AP/AD Sion or Yi for example) but if you build some champs a certain unoptimal way they will be useless. eg: Tank Mundo, he just doesn't have the kit to protect your allies or disrupt the enemy.

tl;dr Don't mistake the ability to build multiple different ways as making everyone roleless, it actually provides a far greater depth to the game.

as for the bold, that may be true of lol but its not in dota. Many heroes require you to micro summoned units, illusions, etc so to be able to handle them like you would in an RTS is essential. You may not like it but its never a problem. Ctrl+1 is not a hard thing to do.

I still need to play these champions to determine this for sure but right now I don't agree, you still have that main champion you will be going back to the most and I feel my quick proposal would still allow that micromanaging without the potential of losing your champ. Dota may be an RTS mod but that doesn't mean it should have untouched RTS controls.

Also pressing Ctrl 1 to allow you to actually have an easy way to reselect your main unit is unacceptable, there should already be a default way in which to do this at the very least.

Think of dota like quake, many of the "flaws" of the WC3 engine became key parts of the game much like strafe jumping in quake. Sure, they may not have been intentional but they work and taking them away would ruin the game (or at least greatly change the experience).

The difference is that rocket jumping enhanced the game, denying doesn't (nor last hitting), it goes directly against the goals of the game. I have no issue with emergent gameplay, I take issue with keeping such examples in when they harm the overall game. eg: Jungling was emergeant gameplay but only certain characters with very specific masteries/runes and a specific jungle route could do it, and that was very poor design. I was less than impressed with jungling in that form. Then Riot did the jungle remake making it a legitimate practise and piece of gameplay that added to the game which I was very supportive of and frankly felt it was long overdue.

[Giblet1]

lol is fundamentally a simpler game, for example the champions don't really fall under any particular team roles

Honestly no, Dota I can imagine actually, the way stats work in Dota (from my admittedly very limited experience so far) it looked as if you'd want to build every stat anyway (your abilities don't even get enhanced from items so why build mage?). In LoL however champions have very specific roles (5 general roles compared to Dota's 3 in fact) and if you think otherwise you mustn't have played LoL much. Some champions can build multiple ways which drastically change their roles and abilities depending on how you build (AP/AD Sion or Yi for example) but if you build some champs a certain unoptimal way they will be useless. eg: Tank Mundo, he just doesn't have the kit to protect your allies or disrupt the enemy.

tl;dr Don't mistake the ability to build multiple different ways as making everyone roleless, it actually provides a far greater depth to the game.

That's the way Dota is played though, depending on what heros you get you either have to end the game fast (eg if you have a lot of casters, early game heroes ect) or drag the game out so your late game heroes shine and smash the
early game heroes.

And even then, you can buy items to make the casters and early game heroes stand a chance late game. Some of those support items area great (sheep stick, mechanism, windwalk stick ect) and can really help out, its not all about the damage/stats.

[Slazza]

Also pressing Ctrl 1 to allow you to actually have an easy way to reselect your main unit is unacceptable, there should already be a default way in which to do this at the very least.

Looks like someone didn't set up their keybindings.

[diamondd]

The sole purpose of dota 2 is to offer the same gameplay experience with modern features and a few extras to soften the learning curve.

Modern features to me also includes updates to the core game that achieve the same gameplay goals but in a far more intuitive way. Anything else is keeping things the same for the sake of keeping them the same. Do not be afraid of change especially if it doesn't change the game itself but instead improves on it.

And Dota 2 graphics are bad. They're nice to look at sure but in their ability to function and show you what is happening on screen they're an abysmal failure.

lol is fundamentally a simpler game, for example the champions don't really fall under any particular team roles

Honestly no, Dota I can imagine actually, the way stats work in Dota (from my admittedly very limited experience so far) it looked as if you'd want to build every stat anyway (your abilities don't even get enhanced from items so why build mage?). In LoL however champions have very specific roles (5 general roles compared to Dota's 3 in fact) and if you think otherwise you mustn't have played LoL much. Some champions can build multiple ways which drastically change their roles and abilities depending on how you build (AP/AD Sion or Yi for example) but if you build some champs a certain unoptimal way they will be useless. eg: Tank Mundo, he just doesn't have the kit to protect your allies or disrupt the enemy.

tl;dr Don't mistake the ability to build multiple different ways as making everyone roleless, it actually provides a far greater depth to the game.

as for the bold, that may be true of lol but its not in dota. Many heroes require you to micro summoned units, illusions, etc so to be able to handle them like you would in an RTS is essential. You may not like it but its never a problem. Ctrl+1 is not a hard thing to do.

I still need to play these champions to determine this for sure but right now I don't agree, you still have that main champion you will be going back to the most and I feel my quick proposal would still allow that micromanaging without the potential of losing your champ. Dota may be an RTS mod but that doesn't mean it should have untouched RTS controls.

Also pressing Ctrl 1 to allow you to actually have an easy way to reselect your main unit is unacceptable, there should already be a default way in which to do this at the very least.

Think of dota like quake, many of the "flaws" of the WC3 engine became key parts of the game much like strafe jumping in quake. Sure, they may not have been intentional but they work and taking them away would ruin the game (or at least greatly change the experience).

The difference is that rocket jumping enhanced the game, denying doesn't (nor last hitting), it goes directly against the goals of the game. I have no issue with emergent gameplay, I take issue with keeping such examples in when they harm the overall game. eg: Jungling was emergeant gameplay but only certain characters with very specific masteries/runes and a specific jungle route could do it, and that was very poor design. I was less than impressed with jungling in that form. Then Riot did the jungle remake making it a legitimate practise and piece of gameplay that added to the game which I was very supportive of and frankly felt it was long overdue.

*sigh* knew I was opening a can of worms.

bold1: rubbish, you just don't know the abilities yet. I can clearly tell when, where and what spells are being used at any time. I know the feeling of "HOLY CLUSTERF*CK WHAT IS GOING ON!" but that passes as you become familiar with with what's going on and when you get to that point you'll realise how wonderfully clear everything actually is.

bold2: we're going to have to concede that neither of us have played much of our least preferred games because I may have been wrong about lol and you're certainly wrong about dota if you think it works like that. For one there are way more than 3 roles on a team...

bold3,4&5: *hero.

bold6: if that's all you want I'm pretty sure you can click your portrait... the only time you ever even have the potential for this to be an issue is using the courier anyway and honestly its just one click.

bold7: nice opinion, sure it would be great to see a MOBA style game that didn't rely on last hitting or denying but such a game would not be dota. Go ahead and say you don't like the mechanic but DON'T argue that it shouldn't be there. Not having to concentrate on that very much was a huge reason why I found early game lol to be tediously boring.

bold8: how is that poor design? that's like saying BF3 is poorly designed because only one class gets a rocket launcher. That's kind of the whole point, it should be an exclusive thing because if everyone could jungle it would defeat the purpose.

[Disco LT]

Bek..that video makes me want to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R .. I go through these phases, but I never buy the damned games.

Buy it then immediately patch it with one of the Complete mods (there's one for each title). Just do it!

Shadows of Chernobyl is the first game, right??

[diamondd]

Bek..that video makes me want to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R .. I go through these phases, but I never buy the damned games.

Buy it then immediately patch it with one of the Complete mods (there's one for each title). Just do it!

Shadows of Chernobyl is the first game, right??

yep

[exe3]

Calm down guys i'm just stating some points, i've already stated that i'll continue playing so i'm more than open to be proven wrong on anything i've said.

*sigh* knew I was opening a can of worms.

bold1: rubbish, you just don't know the abilities yet. I can clearly tell when, where and what spells are being used at any time. I know the feeling of "HOLY CLUSTERF*CK WHAT IS GOING ON!" but that passes as you become familiar with with what's going on and when you get to that point you'll realise how wonderfully clear everything actually is.

bold2: we're going to have to concede that neither of us have played much of our least preferred games because I may have been wrong about lol and you're certainly wrong about dota if you think it works like that. For one there are way more than 3 roles on a team...

bold3,4&5: *hero.

bold6: if that's all you want I'm pretty sure you can click your portrait... the only time you ever even have the potential for this to be an issue is using the courier anyway and honestly its just one click.

bold7: nice opinion, sure it would be great to see a MOBA style game that didn't rely on last hitting or denying but such a game would not be dota. Go ahead and say you don't like the mechanic but DON'T argue that it shouldn't be there. Not having to concentrate on that very much was a huge reason why I found early game lol to be tediously boring.

bold8: how is that poor design? that's like saying BF3 is poorly designed because only one class gets a rocket launcher. That's kind of the whole point, it should be an exclusive thing because if everyone could jungle it would defeat the purpose.

1. Understanding everything because of the countless hours you've already been exposed to it doesn't count, this stuff needs to be easily understandable visually from the word go of which Dota 2 most definitely is not. I've already stated that only once did I even see the visual effect for the nature guys ulti.

2. Ok I may be wrong but I got the 3 roles thing from a Dota players post. maybe they were talking about Agility/Intelligence/Strength? I don't know.

3/4/5. Um ok?

6. I had this issue far more than I should have in my match. Might not have been as bad if you had character faces on the minimap like LoL does.

7. I didn't say it *shouldn't* be in the game per say but that it's a bad mechanic that directly contradicts the goals of the game. I frankly think last hitting needs denying for the reasons you've stated (I also find laning to be idiotically boring), doesn't make the mechanics in and of themselves anything but archaic. I very much look forward to Blizzard DOTA for a game that does away with both of them.

8. It's actually not and that's a terrible comparison. Maybe a better comparison would be that you are required to be lvl30 before you're only able to JUST survive sniping otherwise you insta die all the time for meaningless reasons (not enough numbers, ie: you can still snipe but you don't have the number to actually do well). But regardless there was no skill in the old jungle as the 'challenge' was to merely survive it as it was never designed to be 'jungled'. It was essentially an exploit like denying but it was retooled and legitimized by Riot.

That's the way Dota is played though, depending on what heros you get you either have to end the game fast (eg if you have a lot of casters, early game heroes ect) or drag the game out so your late game heroes shine and smash the
early game heroes.

And even then, you can buy items to make the casters and early game heroes stand a chance late game. Some of those support items area great (sheep stick, mechanism, windwalk stick ect) and can really help out, its not all about the damage/stats.

I wasn't having a go at Dota as different games play differently. I was defending LoL as it most definitely isn't a simple version of Dota. It has its own setup of very deep nuances. Different=/=simplistic yet 99.99% of Dota players just can't get over the fact that it isn't Dota and feel the need to look at it as a lesser game via some stupid superiority complex.

[Slazza]

6. I had this issue far more than I should have in my match. Might not have been as bad if you had character faces on the minimap like LoL does.

Holding Alt shows hero faces on the minimap.
You can also turn them on permanently in options.

[Giblet1]

I wasn't having a go at Dota as different games play differently. I was defending LoL as it most definitely isn't a simple version of Dota. It has its own setup of very deep nuances. Different=/=simplistic yet 99.99% of Dota players just can't get over the fact that it isn't Dota and feel the need to look at it as a lesser game via some stupid superiority complex.

I agree, but out of the most 3 I've played (LoL, HoN and Dota 2, also use to play a lot of Dota) LoL would have to be the noob friendliest (which isn't a bad thing). I think people get 'noob friendly' and simplistic mixed up, and if they did change Dota 2 in ways like that, the outrage would be huge . I for one love the fact that they have stuck exactly the old game almost, to many games these days try to change things with 'new and innovative whatever' when they make a sequal and it ends up being for the worse.

[exe3]

6. I had this issue far more than I should have in my match. Might not have been as bad if you had character faces on the minimap like LoL does.

Holding Alt shows hero faces on the minimap.
You can also turn them on permanently in options.

Thanks i'll try that.

I wasn't having a go at Dota as different games play differently. I was defending LoL as it most definitely isn't a simple version of Dota. It has its own setup of very deep nuances. Different=/=simplistic yet 99.99% of Dota players just can't get over the fact that it isn't Dota and feel the need to look at it as a lesser game via some stupid superiority complex.

I agree, but out of the most 3 I've played (LoL, HoN and Dota 2, also use to play a lot of Dota) LoL would have to be the noob friendliest (which isn't a bad thing). I think people get 'noob friendly' and simplistic mixed up, and if they did change Dota 2 in ways like that, the outrage would be huge . I for one love the fact that they have stuck exactly the old game almost, to many games these days try to change things when they make a sequal and it ends up being for the worse.

'Noob friendly' as in people are actually given a learning slope as opposed to a learning cliff? I feel the term 'noob friendly' need sto be looked at when a game as complicated and deep as LoL can be called as such. It may or may not be as complicated as Dota but that doesn't suddenly make it a noob friendly game that anyone can play.

Also there's a misconception happening. When I say change (or did I say that word?) I don't mean change fundamental mechanics of the game like denying or such, i'm saying alter some things that should be altered to make the game play the exact same only better. Better controls won't change the core mechanics, it'll actually improve them as it's no longer a chore to play the game. If people like unoptimal controls just because that's what they're used to then I don't know what to say but don't think there's a good reason to keep those unoptimal controls 'just because'.

[diamondd]

Calm down guys i'm just stating some points, i've already stated that i'll continue playing so i'm more than open to be proven wrong on anything i've said.

*sigh* knew I was opening a can of worms.

bold1: rubbish, you just don't know the abilities yet. I can clearly tell when, where and what spells are being used at any time. I know the feeling of "HOLY CLUSTERF*CK WHAT IS GOING ON!" but that passes as you become familiar with with what's going on and when you get to that point you'll realise how wonderfully clear everything actually is.

bold2: we're going to have to concede that neither of us have played much of our least preferred games because I may have been wrong about lol and you're certainly wrong about dota if you think it works like that. For one there are way more than 3 roles on a team...

bold3,4&5: *hero.

bold6: if that's all you want I'm pretty sure you can click your portrait... the only time you ever even have the potential for this to be an issue is using the courier anyway and honestly its just one click.

bold7: nice opinion, sure it would be great to see a MOBA style game that didn't rely on last hitting or denying but such a game would not be dota. Go ahead and say you don't like the mechanic but DON'T argue that it shouldn't be there. Not having to concentrate on that very much was a huge reason why I found early game lol to be tediously boring.

bold8: how is that poor design? that's like saying BF3 is poorly designed because only one class gets a rocket launcher. That's kind of the whole point, it should be an exclusive thing because if everyone could jungle it would defeat the purpose.

1. Understanding everything because of the countless hours you've already been exposed to it doesn't count, this stuff needs to be easily understandable visually from the word go of which Dota 2 most definitely is not. I've already stated that only once did I even see the visual effect for the nature guys ulti.

2. Ok I may be wrong but I got the 3 roles thing from a Dota players post. maybe they were talking about Agility/Intelligence/Strength? I don't know.

3/4/5. Um ok?

6. I had this issue far more than I should have in my match. Might not have been as bad if you had character faces on the minimap like LoL does.

7. I didn't say it *shouldn't* be in the game per say but that it's a bad mechanic that directly contradicts the goals of the game. I frankly think last hitting needs denying for the reasons you've stated (I also find laning to be idiotically boring), doesn't make the mechanics in and of themselves anything but archaic. I very much look forward to Blizzard DOTA for a game that does away with both of them.

8. It's actually not and that's a terrible comparison. Maybe a better comparison would be that you are required to be lvl30 before you're only able to JUST survive sniping otherwise you insta die all the time for meaningless reasons (not enough numbers, ie: you can still snipe but you don't have the number to actually do well). But regardless there was no skill in the old jungle as the 'challenge' was to merely survive it as it was never designed to be 'jungled'. It was essentially an exploit like denying but it was retooled and legitimized by Riot.

That's the way Dota is played though, depending on what heros you get you either have to end the game fast (eg if you have a lot of casters, early game heroes ect) or drag the game out so your late game heroes shine and smash the
early game heroes.

And even then, you can buy items to make the casters and early game heroes stand a chance late game. Some of those support items area great (sheep stick, mechanism, windwalk stick ect) and can really help out, its not all about the damage/stats.

I wasn't having a go at Dota as different games play differently. I was defending LoL as it most definitely isn't a simple version of Dota. It has its own setup of very deep nuances. Different=/=simplistic yet 99.99% of Dota players just can't get over the fact that it isn't Dota and feel the need to look at it as a lesser game via some stupid superiority complex.

1. Countless hours is an exaggeration, see it once and its quite clear. I was only talking about being able to follow everything in a big team fight anyway, now I don't actually get what you're worried about... All the spell effects are very clear. Nature's Prophet is a slightly special case however because his ulti is a bit unusual so that's a reasonable enough point. 99% of the spells in the game are crystal clear though.

2. Probably, each hero is stronger in one of those three things but it doesn't define their roles in a team. "Role" wise we're looking at carries, supports, gankers, initiators, disablers, pushers and all that jazz. Most heroes can be built to be effective in 2 of these or as a bit of a hybrid. The whole point though is that different types of heroes are stronger at different parts of the game.

6. Character faces? a) you can see those if you press alt b) the big coloured arrow is 100x clearer than a tiny face anyway and yours has a dot on it to make it even clearer still.

7. It doesn't directly contradict the goals of the game though, in fact denying contributes to the goals and strategy of the game in many ways. You're only looking at it from a need to kill towers point of view but early game that's impossible anyway and the goal of the game is really just try not to die. Denying creeps helps stop your lane from pushing into range of the enemy tower which keeps you safer and doesn't put you at a last hit disadvantage. Also I don't find laning idiotically boring, in dota its a lot of fun. Restricting them as much as possible and looking for the early gank/first blood is good fun and sets the tone for the entire match.

8. I have no idea what you're talking about, old jungle? surviving? I don't know about lol but in dota the neutral creeps do nothing unless you attack them. Its not like they're there to make shortcutting through the forest dangerous... I'm a little dubious of your opinion about the origins of jungling to be honest and going back to your previous post your argument seems very lol-centric. Jungling in dota has never been some exploit of a perfect set of items and skills, some heroes are just better suited to it than others. If your team wants to free up a second solo lane and you want to jungle then the choice is yours.

And just to your last bit quoting Giblet1, it is unfair to call lol simplistic as it isn't really but the point dota players are generally trying to get across is that it is undeniably a FAR more forgiving game. Many would prefer that because it leaves the game more wide open in terms of who's going to win but many also prefer the dota approach, where one false move can really hurt your teams chances.

[exe3]

1. We'll see about the other spells but I still feel the visuals in general are too muddy. I often had difficulty distinguishing paths from trees and rocks.

2. Ok well i'll be interested in seeing how this plays out as I learn more.

6. I don't know about Dota but all of LoL's characters are extremely artistically diverse, simply put you can easily identify the different champions even from a small character portrait circle.

7. You're effectively murdering your own military force and actively delaying your advance of destroying the enemies base which is the only way to win. How exactly is that not contradictory to the very goals of the game? Yes I am only speaking in terms of pushing but that should actively be your goal from the instant the match starts, otherwise why even have the towers/bases? Also can't take towers so early? Well that's a flaw that needs to be looked at I'd think.

Simply put it's boring and hollow. It's effectively a game of resource denial, attrition, and there's nothing fun about it. What's fun is getting into fights and destroying towers and using superior tactical strategy to come out on top rather than having a superior economy.

Personally i've always hated early game based on how utterly different it is from mid/late game. It feels like an entirely different game, no consistency.

8. I wasn't comparing Dota's and LoL's jungle, it was just an example of how an emergent style of gameplay isn't necessarily good until it is embraced by the developer and changed to better support the type of gameplay that was emerging. I have no idea what Dota's jungle is like, I was under the impression that Dota didn't have a jungle in the LoL sense where it was a '4th lane'. Very nice to see that jungling is a choice in Dota 2, I hate how people think you're trolling when you don't have a jungler (or support) in a LoL match as if it's mandatory.

As for the last bit the issue I have is that the vast majority of times i've seen LoL referred to as 'noob friendly' was in a derogatory way trying to put the game down so it annoys me a bit when it gets referred as such.

[Giblet1]

'Noob friendlier' in the sense that the game is easier on new players or easier for them to get into. Take Dota 2 for example, you can get games where no one wants to spend the 200 gold on a courier meaning that player is gimped slightly, and its almost essential to have one, little strategic things like that, because having a courier or not makes a huge difference in the long run. Where as HoN its there from the start. Or teleport for example in LoL and Dota. In Dota you have to decide if you want to waste the gold and carry around a town portal scroll, in LoL its just there and doesn't even take an item slot.
Its little things like this that make the game easier on players imo because no one has to make that decision.

Buying a courier or teleports is a strategic choice your team has to make, HoN and LoL don't have some of them, hence slightly easier in my eyes. Not saying its simplistic though.

[Mearehear]

I got my Dota2 invite the other day, and installed it..but reading the last page or two of this this thread has just turned me off even trying to learn it. I may as well be trying to decipher hieroglyphics when reading the stuff you guys are talking about, and that tells me it's not going to be a game that interests me.

Many other things to play and understand rather than spending hours trying to make heads or tails of all that.

/uninstalls and wanders back off to play Journey once again