Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3 Ending

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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby exe3 » 21 Mar 12, 8:21 pm

CJGordon wrote:I think a lot of you are forgetting that bioware had a different ending planned, but due to the game being prematurely released, they said **** you, if you want to play the game before release we are going to change the ending.

You talking about the Dark Energy ending where the Reapers were actually trying to save the entire universe? The ending that Mass Effect 2 was actually hinting at (eg: Tali investigating the sun that was dieing too quickly)? What actually happened there was that the writer for Mass Effect 1 and 2 left so a different guy wrote Mass Effect 3 and came up with his own idea on what the Reapers were up to, which sucked due to more ways than one, no foreshadowing being the least of its problems.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby CJGordon » 21 Mar 12, 8:28 pm

exe3 wrote:
CJGordon wrote:I think a lot of you are forgetting that bioware had a different ending planned, but due to the game being prematurely released, they said **** you, if you want to play the game before release we are going to change the ending.

You talking about the Dark Energy ending where the Reapers were actually trying to save the entire universe? The ending that Mass Effect 2 was actually hinting at (eg: Tali investigating the sun that was dieing too quickly)? What actually happened there was that the writer for Mass Effect 1 and 2 left so a different guy wrote Mass Effect 3 and came up with his own idea on what the Reapers were up to, which sucked due to more ways than one, no foreshadowing being the least of its problems.


Ahh, I see, the time the ending was changed was around the same time the game was leaked to the net, so I assumed that was the reason, learn something everyday.

heh, so it turns out Tali's squad did die for no reason, bummer for them.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby gyoken » 21 Mar 12, 8:48 pm

Zethnar wrote:As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Mr Barnett. Games tell a story much like Movies, Television and, yes, Books. To ask an author to go back and edit his work so that the ending suits you would likely cause him (or her) to either laugh in your face or tell you to **** off.

Now, what they don't seem to be getting is that they are completely deserving of all the hate and vitriol being directed towards them for the crappy ending they have presented us with. Just because they shouldn't be forced to change it doesn't mean it wasn't a huge mistake. What they have done is taken a much loved franchise and crapped all over it, simply because they weren't prepared with a real ending when the time came to roll the final product out the doors.

In addition to that, they continually lied to us about the game, particularly about the content of the ending. It was stated multiple times that we would be able to experience a wide variety of endings based on the decisions we had made across all three instalments of the franchise. Clearly that is not nearly the case. The three measly endings we do have are completely segregated from any decisions we had made leading up to them. However it was entirely within their rights to finish the series off like that, despite what we may think.

So no, they shouldn't be forced to change it. But it would be nice if they admitted that mistakes were made and apologised to us all for rushing the game out when it was clearly not ready to see the light of day.



I think every one (Yeah you too Ken Levine!) who agrees and defended Bioware in this case is confusing 2 issues.

Namely, 1. a straight interactive narrative, which is really the western equivalent of a visual novel.....

and 2. an RPG ....

Mass Effect is and always have been marketed as an RPG, hence YOU make you own choices (however limited by the writers and programers) and reap (heh) what you sow.

By sticking with and defending what Bioware had done with ME3 (although I have deliberately avoided reading any materials related to it even tho it is a *****ing pile of fan - hit **** inferred from the rage generated) is akin to the following scenarios:

(Taking another Bioware game) No matter what you do, The Old Republic will see the Sith faction win-out .. because Bioware said so ... so thanks to all the suckers who paid monthly subscription and tweaked their characters.

(or taking another game ...) No matter who you picked, in Shogun Total War, the Tokugawa clan will win out in the end ... because historically this is what happened and so the programmers stuck with historically accurate events.

With Ken Levine's games (or JK Rowling novels for that matter), the creators are trying to TELL you a story, instead of GETTING THE READERS to CONTRIBUTE to the flow and development of the story. (BioShock already already a fixed origin and end point ... only how you get there is different ... which is pretty much any shooter except multiplayer ONLY online shooters ... Hence Ken Levine is utterly ill equipped to argue the issue out... at least until he makes an RPG).

If these scenarios still gets people confused, then consider the following (for the sake of our sports mad brothers)...

The next (insert fave sporting event) already has a pre-determined outcome!

So yeah ! It is not dissimilar to match fixing in this case, negating any variables (in this case your choices in your previous games).

So I do see the logic (and good on the guy) to complaining to the FTC ... (too bad there is no governing / licensing body for games programming unlike so many other professions).

In short, the people who don't see the point of this uproar is obviously playing it wrong (namely playing it like either an adventure game or a *cough* Modern Warfare *cough* shooter and missed the point..... completely.

Now to see a mass exodus from TOR due to a likely **** (read fixed ... pun intended) ending .... which actually may happen as the game is actually very narrative driven ,,, only time will tell.
Last edited by gyoken on 21 Mar 12, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby gyoken » 21 Mar 12, 8:52 pm

CJGordon wrote:
exe3 wrote:
CJGordon wrote:I think a lot of you are forgetting that bioware had a different ending planned, but due to the game being prematurely released, they said **** you, if you want to play the game before release we are going to change the ending.

You talking about the Dark Energy ending where the Reapers were actually trying to save the entire universe? The ending that Mass Effect 2 was actually hinting at (eg: Tali investigating the sun that was dieing too quickly)? What actually happened there was that the writer for Mass Effect 1 and 2 left so a different guy wrote Mass Effect 3 and came up with his own idea on what the Reapers were up to, which sucked due to more ways than one, no foreshadowing being the least of its problems.


Ahh, I see, the time the ending was changed was around the same time the game was leaked to the net, so I assumed that was the reason, learn something everyday.

heh, so it turns out Tali's squad did die for no reason, bummer for them.



About the only other time I have seen this happen is with the Evangelion movies (in the late 90s)...

The current crop of Eva movies are just ... cash in for cash in's sake.

Hence soulless
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Twist.of.Lemon » 21 Mar 12, 9:21 pm

Who honestly gives a **** what Paul "Iraqi Information Minister" Barnett thinks? That guy is a massive tool.

Oh and the ME3 ending was complete arse. Angry Joe's review of the game and subsequent "why we hate the ending" video really did summed it all up in a very balanced way.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby exe3 » 21 Mar 12, 9:34 pm

I don't see the relation between Evangalion and Mass Effect, I thought the Eva guy has been involved in all of Eva's products. Also i've only seen the new movies and i've enjoyed them. *shrugs*
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Zethnar » 22 Mar 12, 12:15 am

Sorry, I just want to clarify something here.

When I say that I agree that BioWare shouldn't have to change the ending of the game, in no way am I defending the **** choices they made.

What I'm aiming to defend is the rights of a creator over their own creations. It doesn't matter what that creation is, whether its a painting, a movie or a book. Yes games are interactive, but that doesn't make them special, that doesn't make them different and it sure as hell doesn't make them YOURS.

You experience the game and get involved with the heroes in the same way you would if you were reading a good novel. Generally you will only get this if the story is engaging enough to really drag you in and make you care (and Mass Effect is a master of that). But at no point does it cross a line and become YOUR story. In the end, you've had no part in the creation of it, no matter how much BioWare wants to tell you that the fans have influenced it as much as anyone.

Look at it this way, we all hate Lucas for what he did to the holy trinity. But they were HIS movies to mess with. If he wants to digitally add a ghost of Jar Jar adding running commentary to entirety of the original saga then that's his call to make. We can yell and bluster all we like, but in the end it wont amount to anything.

All that being said, I hope very much that BioWare creates a new and satisfying ending to the trilogy. But if they decide that isn't what they want to do then that's their choice and we can't do anything about it. Sure you can say, "Well I wont buy their games / dlc / play ToR," and if you can stick to that promise you make to yourself then more power to you. But I can guarantee that 99% of the people swearing that today will happily jump aboard the next BioWare train-wreck and get equally upset when they realise they've once again been manipulated and lied to.

The entire situation reeks of a game rushed out to meet a deadline. It was stated repeatedly up until release that there would be many possible endings and that our choices would have a massive impact on the conclusion of the game. But then, right before release, we get the cryptic message that 'the' ending is going to make some people very angry. They knew full well this kind of outrage would be coming, I bet there were even people at BioWare fighting this, but management wanted the game finished and out the door.

Time was up, slap on an ending, grunt it out and move on to the next game.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Ooshp » 22 Mar 12, 12:23 am

Wow, this is like 4chan, but replace roody poos with Bioware.

Way to make a mountain out of a molehill, bandwagon.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby CJGordon » 22 Mar 12, 12:43 am

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

Don't know if anyone has read this yet, or if anyone is even interested.
our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.

I think its safe to say there will be more ME games, maybe not with Shepard as the lead however.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Marius » 22 Mar 12, 1:05 am

The problem from my perspective is that entitlement seems to be equated with 'no feedback or free speech allowed' in the gaming media.

Apart from a few nutjobs, no one is trying to force Bioware to change anything. They're just voicing complaints. And if they think creators of books, art, or movies don't get complaints... they're in a fantasy land. JK Rowling may be allowed to kill Harry Potter, but she also has no right to dictate a new model of restricted speech which shields her from fan complaints. It goes with the territory of being a successful creator, I'm afraid.

I mean, I've not done anything that could be described as overboard, even though I disliked some parts of the ending. I didn't send a mail bomb to Bioware (or any other threatening 'force'). I just left my feedback in a thread specifically created by the Bioware devs for that purpose.

WTF is wrong with that? :?

Edit: this just in from the founder of Bioware:


I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.


Oh I can understand that there is some destructive criticism. But the vast majority has been constructive. That's something I feel is getting overlooked.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Mekon » 22 Mar 12, 7:15 am

Marius wrote:Apart from a few nutjobs, no one is trying to force Bioware to change anything.

At current count: 58,879 "nutjobs".
http://social.bioware.com/633606/polls/28989

Or 50,217 "nutjobs" here:
https://www.facebook.com/DemandABetterE ... assEffect3

And there are certainly a few posters on these forums who seem to think that they deserve a new ending. Including this person:

viewtopic.php?p=2574843#p2574843

:P
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Marius » 22 Mar 12, 7:34 am

That looks like simple feedback to me. How is making a poll going to force anyone?
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Mekon » 22 Mar 12, 7:37 am

Marius wrote:That looks like simple feedback to me. How is making a poll going to force anyone?

Semantics. And you are ignoring the tone and language in the poll and facebook page; either you accept the current ending and move on (for better or for worse), or you are petitioning/demanding Bioware to give you a new one (aka. "forcing").

There's a distinction between feedback on the ending so they can do better in the future ("normal" criticism) and feedback with the expectation/demand that you get a new one.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby Marius » 22 Mar 12, 7:43 am

Well Bioware haven't exactly covered all their bases.

They put in an ad for future DLC to find out the adventures of Shepard. The end scene with Buzz Aldrin is practically an advertisement ("Let's all sit around the fire while I tell you this other story about Shepard...")

The game practically acknowledges there are holes to be filled. Alot of the criticism of the ending, including mine, is the plot holes.


Mekon wrote:Semantics. And you are ignoring the tone and language in the poll and facebook page


I didn't even look at the facebook page tbh, just the Bioware forum poll. I hate facebook.

Mekon wrote:And there are certainly a few posters on these forums who seem to think that they deserve a new ending. Including this person:

viewtopic.php?p=2574843#p2574843

:P


I'm fine with the ending if it's the ending I think it is. But to actually make logical consistency out of it I have to fill in lots of plot holes myself. I don't think they should necessarily totally replace what happens.
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Re: Industry Heavyweights Defend BioWare Over Mass Effect 3

Unread postby exe3 » 22 Mar 12, 7:57 am

Wow Mekon a lot of that is uncalled for. You seem to think that everyone who didn't like the ending (for very legitimate reasons) are 'wrong' or something. I haven't finished the game but I decided to spoil myself the ending to find out what all the fuss was about and frankly the ending sounds as bad as everyone makes it out to be but I personally won't be doing anything about it. I'll state how bad it is and why it's so bad but in the end there's nothing I can do about it so i'll just have to be content with the knowledge that their reputation with me has been severely harmed and that this franchise is pretty much dead to me.

Also I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of comments are venting frustration over the matter and will calm down with time and move on.
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