Women at the tip of the spear

[MaddMoose]

According to some reports she had a broken arm, thigh, and dislocated ankle, I think having the presence of mind to run through a weapons drill would be incredibly difficult under those circumstances.

Her injuries coupled with the casualties her unit took indicates they were hit extremely hard. It's a bit ridiculous to claim that poor training is to blame for her never firing a round.

[FryzieDelta]

remember we have the most populous muslim(not that religion matters) nation on earth practically a stones throw from our northern border and they have a lot of the population living in borderline poverty. Some people probably see it as silly but it isn't too big a stretch to see the US and Europe suffering the worst recession ever just down the road, leaving us pretty much ripe for the picking by whoever decides they want to try it on.

Muslim majority yes, but it's not an Islamic state and only a minority of the Muslim population are anything but moderate in their beliefs. In any case, the force capability is far to much in our favour to attack the Australasian region conventionally. We've fought them unconventionally before and that didn't go to well for them either.

the comparatively small size of our military makes women serving on the front line (if properly integrated) a very valuable asset to have.

Not really, the infantry are over-capacity at the moment. Adding women to front line units doesn't advantage us in any way practically speaking, at least not at the present time. Perhaps if a major conflict sticks it's head up in the future it will serve as an additional pool from which to bolster front line units, but even then it will only be a very small boost (but hey, every bit counts!).

[Nekosan]

According to some reports she had a broken arm, thigh, and dislocated ankle, I think having the presence of mind to run through a weapons drill would be incredibly difficult under those circumstances.

Her injuries coupled with the casualties her unit took indicates they were hit extremely hard. It's a bit ridiculous to claim that poor training is to blame for her never firing a round.

Her own testimony indicates that she attempted to return fire but couldn't because of the supposed weapon malfunction, if she was too injured then she's just flat out lying about it.

the comparatively small size of our military makes women serving on the front line (if properly integrated) a very valuable asset to have.

Not really, the infantry are over-capacity at the moment. Adding women to front line units doesn't advantage us in any way practically speaking, at least not at the present time. Perhaps if a major conflict sticks it's head up in the future it will serve as an additional pool from which to bolster front line units, but even then it will only be a very small boost (but hey, every bit counts!).

There are going to be female infantry who are better at their job than a certain % of the men currently serving are, it's just a fact of life. Having a larger pool of applicants to draw from can only ensure a higher quality fighting force, of course that needs the integration to be smooth and a little time for perceptions to change.

[Jez]

Her own testimony indicates that she attempted to return fire but couldn't because of the supposed weapon malfunction, if she was too injured then she's just flat out lying about it.

So she attempted to fire, but failed to do so because of her injuries. I'm not going to condemn her for that as so many armchair experts on this site seem to be doing. I think even soldiers in combat roles would be hard-pressed to remain combat effective with two broken bones and a dislocated ankle.

[FryzieDelta]

Rather interesting read here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-30/c ... os/3193504

[Nekosan]

He makes a few valid points regarding the performance of women in combat (sex doesnt matter, if you're good then you're good) but kinda failed to address the point that (early in the article) was where i thought he was going.

Despite people insisting that they don't mind women doing the job, at the end of the day a female combat casualty on the news is going to swing public opinion DRAMATICALLY more than a male one is, what happens (from a political perspective) when we lose someones daughter in a combat action?

You need to expect that our troops will (at some stage in the future) be engaged in front line peacekeeping or combat duties in various parts of the world, will a female death result in policy changes that wouldn't have happened if it had been a male? No matter where it happens, the first female infantry casualty is going to put a LOT of pressure on the ruling party to pull us out (even if there's a good reason to be wherever it happens to have occurred).


edit: it isn't the best example to compare segregated soldiers of a restrictive religion/culture with Australians, every aspect of their culture (military and civilian) involves men and women treating each other differently to the way we do. Might as well compare cats and dogs.

[Jez]

While I can understand your concerns about the cultural/psychological associated with women in combat and the resulting threat to unit cohesion, my problem is that that was the same argument that was used to keep certain races or people of certain sexual orientation out of the military in many countries.

I do know the Israelis have had problems with women in the military, mostly consisting of male soldiers going rambo to try and save or avenged a downed female comrade. I just don't know that the potential problems are a reason to maintain a patriarchy.

[Datafunk]

[quote="Jez"][/quote]


afaik the israeli's solved that by having seperate sections/units between males and females. ie, your unit is only female or only male..

[Mekon]

afaik the israeli's solved that by having seperate sections/units between males and females. ie, your unit is only female or only male..

Except they didn't? The Caracal Battalion is 70% female, 30% male:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal_Battalion

Nevermind those chosing to serve as Border Police:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Border_Police

... and female pilots, navigators?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -guns.html

Gender-blindness is a good thing. If someone is qualified and capable of performing the required tasks, what does it matter what sex they are?

[Nekosan]

Gender-blindness is a good thing. If someone is qualified and capable of performing the required tasks, what does it matter what sex they are?

While i agree i think the majority of the Aussie public aren't capable of truly seeing a female soldier the same as a male one.

Public perception is a little different when you have an identifiable enemy on your own border occupying land you believe is yours.

[Kremmen]

Gender-blindness is a good thing. If someone is qualified and capable of performing the required tasks, what does it matter what sex they are?

While i agree i think the majority of the Aussie public aren't capable of truly seeing a female soldier the same as a male one.

What a few people who are opposed to the females on the front line probably are seeing pink dresses and painted nails on the front line, the women who are trying to get the laws changed are more interested in serving their country than painting their nails.

[Nekosan]

Gender-blindness is a good thing. If someone is qualified and capable of performing the required tasks, what does it matter what sex they are?

While i agree i think the majority of the Aussie public aren't capable of truly seeing a female soldier the same as a male one.

What a few people who are opposed to the females on the front line probably are seeing pink dresses and painted nails on the front line, the women who are trying to get the laws changed are more interested in serving their country than painting their nails.

Even the people who are all for women on the front line are going to be influenced differently by a female death, it's the way society is programmed, people pay more attention to crimes against women than against men.

[MaddMoose]

Female soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't remember recalling any sway in public opinion because they are female.

[Datafunk]

whys it worse to hit a women than a man?

what happens when they're in a war zone and get pregnant?

what happens when they're in a **** war theyt don't like and get pregnant on purpose?

[Mekon]

whys it worse to hit a women than a man?

Outdated social mores? Personally, I don't think it's acceptable to beat someone else up, regardless of the sex of the victim.

what happens when they're in a war zone and get pregnant?

You've heard of birth control, right? Nevermind that, generally speaking, when you're in a warzone, you're "at work". Sex in the workplace tends to get frowned upon.