An organized (huge) Warfare game

[Goshawk]

This should be a game of skill and fun. Dropping artillery on the enemy base is neither of these. There will be 30 players on each side, even just 3 of them with arty set up will demolish a base in a few minutes. Even if reloading is more expensive, you still get 30 rounds to start with. 3x players with only 1 arty piece is 90 rounds dropping on their heads. Scrap arty completely.

Would also be nice if we could restrict air and remove the choppers that have 80 missiles that can also take out an entire base in seconds..

Ok everyone, allow me to translate for Freebourne "I want tank battles only!"

Because that's what you're going to end up with if there's no arty or aircraft. I'm feeling less and less inclined to play these days because of all the ridiculous tank **** going on with no real viable counter other than your own tank spam. Removing attack helos is removing the penultimate predator of the tank and again simply reduces the game to tank versus tank combat. People **** about AH-64 pilots raping their tanks yet I only ever see Placidbox or Baskerville using mobile AA.

You're worried about players just arty raping a base yet there's no quarrel with players SABOT sniping buildings from 3-4km away? Worried that people will just arty rape resistance towns? Don't worry everyone! we'll just trigger the town and rape everything from a distance in 30 seconds using tanks.

Warfare is supposed to be about using combined arms to push through your enemy with a little bit of asymmetrical warfare thrown in for good measure. First we saw the removal of arty, which is a fair call to an extent (I'd rather see it rebalanced rather than removed). Then came jets which we barely see anymore and now attack helo's aren't getting used much anymore either.
Playing as infantry is beyond a joke with all the tab-locking capable vehicles even when players are equipped with Metis/Javelin because there's no financial incentive for a tank player to protect their tank. An M1A1 only costs around 5-6k which in the later stages of the game is two tenths of **** all income, hell you make that back by the time you've driven out of base!


So instead of just screaming "oh my god X is overpowered" and screaming for its removal why don't we take an attempt to balance **** out? We have the people capable of modifying the game as such so lets come up with alternatives instead of just swinging around the ban hammer. I'm than willing to post up my ideas if people ask.

I'll get off my box now....

[Freeborne]

Haha, it's true i love my tanks, but lets keep things honest and realistic.

I don't want attack choppers removed, just the missile racks on some of the choppers reduced. 8 missiles on the Huey is fine. 80 missile on a Mi24 is too much for this mission, agree? AH64 should be fine as is, same with AH1Z. I don't want to see an entire base wiped out by one person in a chopper.

I don't know how many games you play without me, but when I'm playing I rarely see 'ownage' by tanks. I rarely see squads of tanks either, except perhaps if the AI has been ordered to build them. 1 shot tank killing weapons are plentiful and cheap enough.

People **** about their tanks getting wiped out because they can't kill the enemy jets or choppers. Once they have countermeasures it's almost impossible to kill them if they stay up high. All tanks get is a few smoke grenades. East have a better chance with Tungs, but West are out of luck against KA52s or Hinds taking out masses of tanks with Hellfires.

So much of your post makes little sense to me. Tanks are not cheap and few people can afford to go through them like underwear. It's the people that run around as an infantrymen with Jav or Metis are usually the ones first able to afford chopper or jet. You buy a Jav once, and keep it every time you respawn, but take out a T90 once and you earn 2500 bounty (approx). T90 kills you and gets about $63. Please do your math lol. Have jets and attack choppers been removed? Only a few games I've played have had transport choppers only, so pretty sure most games we play with Jets on, but often the Kamov is disabled. Tanks have so many weaknesses bur choppers and jets have few. Having died plenty of times in a tank I can't relate to your post.

This match, hopefully will mostly be PvP, so taking out Resistance towns with a tank, etc is not very relevant.

I would be happy with having arty if it was restricted to a player slot, so only one person could use it, and there was a 10 minute timer between salvos. It should only be used as support, to soften a town or take out base defenses like AA so a jet can do a bombing run. A couple of artillery pieces (3x cost less than a Tusk) is all you need to wipe out most bases bypassing all walls and defenses. A good commander can spend up to 10k on AA and AT pods which can hold off several tanks, and do nothing against artillery. I hate to say this, but all your posts seem to be complaints that the game is too hard and you want easier and easier ways to kill/win.

Remember this is a game for ~60 people, and making it balanced and fun, while hopefully ensuring smooth performance. Few people can usually afford choppers and jets so no point having them too powerful or only 2 or 3 people will have fun by mopping up the rest. Removing arty and missile spamming is about removing 'game enders'.

[Goshawk]

80 missile on a Mi24 is too much for this mission, agree?

Definitely do not agree. Those are UNguided missiles of either HE or AT variety which usually require the pilot to get close to the target in a not so nimble helicopter that is so vulnerable to even a basic stinger it's not funny. Seriously, one stinger hit and the MI-24's engine is gone.
Those 8 missiles on the American choppers pretty much equate to 8 confirmed kills from upwards of 3-4kms away.

The only reason I'd take the MI-24 over the AH-64 in game is due to my personal preference and extensive self training on how to use that particular vehicle to its maximum potential.

I don't know how many games you play without me, but when I'm playing I rarely see 'ownage' by tanks. I rarely see squads of tanks either, except perhaps if the AI has been ordered to build them. 1 shot tank killing weapons are plentiful and cheap enough.

Are you playing with your eyes closed? There's a reason the HF is now the number 1 priority building in every game. A tank, particularly on Takistan, is so lethal it's not funny, ignoring the fact that players are driving a main battle tank up a mountain that in real life would not even be remotely possible. Games on Takistan simply become a game of who can get access to tanks first so that players just drive to a hill top, push tab and kill with ease.

People **** about their tanks getting wiped out because they can't kill the enemy jets or choppers. Once they have countermeasures it's almost impossible to kill them if they stay up high. All tanks get is a few smoke grenades. East have a better chance with Tungs, but West are out of luck against KA52s or Hinds taking out masses of tanks with Hellfires.

Again, I barely ever see players using mobile AA and even though East get access to the Tunguska which is an incredibly powerful tool we also have the balancing parameter which adds the Sidewinder to the Linebacker to increase its punch.
Also bare in mind that the MI-24 is not as potent as you think. I consider myself an extremely good MI-24 pilot and I can tell you right now they're nowhere near as powerful as you think. One avenger and it's pretty much game over for the Crocodile. The P, which is the most effective varient of my beloved MI-24 only has 4 ATAKA which take 2 to kill a TUSK. Every other weapon on that vehicle requires you to perform a head on attack which, like you said yourself, usually results in the pilot being shot down by a SABOT.

Tanks are not cheap and few people can afford to go through them like underwear. It's the people that run around as an infantrymen with Jav or Metis are usually the ones first able to afford chopper or jet. You buy a Jav once, and keep it every time you respawn, but take out a T90 once and you earn 2500 bounty (approx). T90 kills you and gets about $63.

Tanks (and other HF vehicles, not just the MBTs) are definitely far far too cheap. Also, a T90 or M1 kill will net you at most 1.5k. Your point on players respawning at no cost with Metis is semi valid, but the latest version of the mission addresses this with gear respawn cost. Suddenly that Metis + KSVK or Javelin + M107 kit out isn't so cheap anymore with a cost of 1.5k alone for a full kit out every time the player dies.
This parameter also address the ambo spam issue of players hitting respawn to get more ammo for their AT weapon.

Besides, aircraft are priced according to their value and rarity on the modern battlefield yet in real life you'd be lucky to see a handful of tanks in an area the size of Cherno/Taki yet in game we see hundreds. When I buy a chopper or jet in game I am most certainly not thinking "hey can I recoup the cost of this chopper by killing X amount of enemy?" instead I'm using my asset to help my team by shutting down movement of enemy units and if I happen to make back the money via kills then good for me.

As for players running around with just their lone infantry man and ambo, the downside to this is the time it takes those players to cap towns. Besides, it's a sound plan for the team to have a player or two to be designated pilots who save their money for a plane so that when the time comes the team can have someone in the air making use of that powerful asset.

This match, hopefully will mostly be PvP, so taking out Resistance towns with a tank, etc is not very relevant.

See this is where people are getting confused. This mission is PvE with PvP elements thrown in. Taking out resistance towns not relevant? Can I have some of what you're smoking? If all you're after is pure PvP why bother even having the towns? Why not just start the game with the map 50/50 split with no resistance at all?

A team that takes towns quicker gets higher income quicker. A tank sitting on a hill will literally clear a town in 3-4 shots. I know because I've done it. I took a town with 2 HE rounds on Taki the other night.

A good commander can spend up to 10k on AA and AT pods which can hold off several tanks, and do nothing against artillery.

The best defense is a good offense. Your idea of a giant sim city fortress being fun is not so fun for everyone else.

I hate to say this, but all your posts seem to be complaints that the game is too hard and you want easier and easier ways to kill/win.

If I want easier ways to win I'd simply do what I used to do in the past, grab the starting ambo and hunt your base down in 15-05 minutes and rape you then and there.

What I want to see is a dynamic battlefield with players using reasonable and non-cheap tactics to fight for each town with a variety of vehicles, weapons and strategies that attempt to emulate a modern battlefield. Throw in a bit of asymmetrical warfare via ambushes and sniping and I'll be happy.

Instead what I'm seeing are games that pretty much progress along the same lines every time and it's becoming incredibly stale incredibly fast.

[Freeborne]

We played an earlier version of Placid's Warfare. 30vs30 however we only reached 30 to 40 players during the match.

Not sure how performance was on the server, but ran fine from my end, without any lag, rubber banding, or delays in building.

Don't know how OPFOR went, but BLUFOR didn't build too many static items, mostly just MG bunkers.

Game went for about 3 hours. Supply seemed MUCH better than other small town matches. We had two bases, HF Lvl3, 2x LFs, etc.

I think the no respawn (except at MASH) was brilliant. People stuck in groups, there wasnt as much base hunting as normal games, and income wasn't that bad you always felt broke.

Player AI was limited to 8 which worked well for me.

Town defense was tough. The enemy infantry were great shots and vehicles engaged quicker and laid down more fire. I thought it was just right balance, not too tough but not push over easy like they are in other matches (usually you kill 3 before the rest react).

Map size was good. Town placement was also nice with towns not being too close or two far.

Saw quite a bit of PvP going on, and a few tanks and light vehicles, but not swarms of tanks or infantry either. Overall it seemed fairly balanced, without one person steam rolling through multiple towns.

What did everyone else think?

[Baskerville]

I enjoyed it heaps.

I'm not really sure about the not being able to respawn at ambos but whatever.

I think it really showed how tanks are really useless without inf support. Especially at kamyshovo...

Wouldn't mind full towns but overall I really had alot of fun.

[theremin]

Wouldn't mind full towns but overall I really had alot of fun.

I think a full map would be a good option - maybe just have the big towns and leave out some smaller ones (to ease the load on the server). Placid said that it'd be like playing 'Transport Tycoon' - but I personally like the idea of driving for ages to get somewhere - it increases the tension as you push further into enemy territory - back to square one if an enemy tank gets the drop on you.

[Drjft]

When is the next playtest of Placid's game type? It sounds good, and I'm keen to try it out with you all.

[Xerxes17]

Well the match tonight was pretty phenomenal!

Started off by joining OPFOR while there was some uproar about nobody wanting to command. I of course volunteered! Taking note of the smaller map size, I decided to deploy at The destroyed village near guglovo. On the way there I had my first contact with the enemy, Freebourne in a V3S truck. Thinking quickly I jumped onto the MG and gunned him down ad a few others. Depite this I decided to keep with the plan of setting up at Guglovo.

However this backfired as later somebody in blufor managed to flank us and destroy the barracks and light, forcing us to relocate. So I moved up to a postion that a Chedaki once showed me North of Gorka (campaign reference)

Taking our precarious position in stock, I decided that a blitz across the AO, taking Gorka, Polana then Orvolets was the best course of action. In addition, I would focus on upgrading to BTR90's as thier combination of mobility firepower and cost would be highly effective.

In short order we had already taken Gorka without difficulty. However our attack was at risk of stalling as Polana was a Blufor town and it's defenses were heavily reinforced, including the presence of a few M1A1 tanks! However, the timely and courageous intervention of our recently acquired BRDM2-ATGM vehicles knocked out this threat and allowed us to take the town. By this time the BTR90's were available and we quickly overwhelmed Orlovets.

Next I sent most of our men to secure Berezino for it's supplies. While having a few others stay back to defend the "blitz line". Berezino was quickly secured and I turned the focus of our operations back southward.

What followed was a a see-saw battle over the towns of Guglovo, Staroye and Solichny. In a particular engagement at Guglovo, the BTR90's did exemplary work. 2 Attacking from the North-East managed to destroy 3 out of 5 Bradleys in the area, however the BTR's were both knocked out. A second attack by another pair managed to destroy the last two without losses. Exploiting this severe blow to enemy strength, an attack was launched against Staroye. The Town was quickly secured without much difficulty.

Soon enough however a deadlock settled over the Gains Made, with the enemy constantly counterattacking Guglovo, Solichny and Staroye. Attempting to break the deadlock, I created an FOB at Shakovka in an effort to shorten our supply lines. However this move was unsuccessful, with no change in the battle observed. Clearly new tactics would be required.

With this in mind, I sold the buildings of the "chedaki" base to secure enough supply to create an airbase at Krasnostav airfield, along with an upgrade to our air capabilities. Around this time our Shakovka FOB was destroyed. So I created another FOB at the factory between Polana and Orlovets. Once that was done, the airbase and new equipment was ready. Pooling our resources, the team managed to get 3 helicopters up in the air. A Huey flown by Baskerville to scout and confirm the enemy base location, and two Mi8MTV3 "rocket-sleds" flown by Wraith and myself.

While Baskervillie flew to the suspected base location to confirm, The strike element flanked off to the West, flying over Stary Sobor, and the Zelenogorsk radio-tower. This was done to minimize the risk of ground fire downing the strike element, or to allow the enemy to put up emergency Air defence after spotting the incoming helicopters.

Flying in from the radio-tower, the strike element spotted it's target at 2km distance and opened fire. The attack took the enemy completely by surprise,and the firepower the "rocket-sleds" rained down on the enemy was awe-inspiring, destroying the enemy base in one pass. All that was left was a solitary Warrior IFV and a cratered moonscape where the base once stood. As a result of this successful strike, the enemy was completely routed (they all logged off ). The mopping up of stragglers was a simple task for our forces and was completed quickly without issue.

I would like to give notable praise to Baskervillie, PlacidBox, Flermpick and Wraith, their skill and courage was key to our success in this battle. I will also note that the rest of the team preformed brilliantly, carrying out my orders quickly and with diligence.

One the enemy side, Freebourne was easily our greatest threat, stopping many of our actions with his efforts.

In closing this was an epic match and I'll defiantely be making 50 player versions of my latest two missions!

[Baskerville]

Freeborne was being an absolute novelist in that match

[-Wraith-]

It was a pretty epic game, and I got to use my new joystick that I'm trying to get used to... (haven't used a joystick since European Air War), Luckily avoided crashing, landing took a little bit, I've been so used to digital keyboard inputs...

[Freeborne]

Was a good turnout. I counted 35 players at one stage but might have gotten even higher then that.

I had fun but the mission dragged on way too long with heavy player stacking on OPFOR. Not only did you guys more than double our players but had the regulars up against myself and new players.

There was a lot of whinging at the start that params were stuffed and mission was bugged etc, although from what I could gather it was simply because OPFOR voted Baskerville as Commander while he was AFK Kind of of spoilt first 20 minutes though.

Was a good game up until we lost our MHQ half way through the game when Theremin was moving it to another location (I think, I never noticed). Aside from first base (both sides) that was destroyed early as they were set up 1.5k from each other, our bases were undiscovered and safe for a long time, so shame we lost our MHQ

The majority of Xerxes review is about the action that happened a fair time after we lost our MHQ and once teams were heavily stacked. Was pretty bad you guys took so long against so few players

[Phear]

Yeah small town size, small AI squads and heaps of players = fun. There was a fair bit of teamwork going on which is good. If camp gear and respawn were on, it would have been even better.

[PlacidBox]

Yeah small town size, small AI squads and heaps of players = fun. There was a fair bit of teamwork going on which is good. If camp gear and respawn were on, it would have been even better.

The reason there was so much teamwork above normal is because those params were off, makes it extremely hard to solo around

We were up to 40 players by my count, I think. Could probably max the server on weekends.

Still a fun game though, especially when we had 10 or so players in mixed brdms, btrs and uazs plowing through northern towns

[Freeborne]

Perhaps we should aim to have a large game this Sunday?

It won't be New Years Eve, or New Years Day.
The following day (Monday) is a Public Holiday.

Should mean a lot of people just hanging around at home wanting to play ArmA (with most things closed on Sunday's and through XMAS-NYE break).

Have we tested Placid's latest version? So far it seems the best version to play for stability, teamwork and player familiarity.

I would probably restrict air to transport chopppers only, and disable camp/gear respawn like we had last night.

Should be easy to get 50 players if we invite a few people, if last night was 30+ most of the night, on a Tuesday night!

[Goshawk]

I'd say leave attack helo's on. They're a primary counter to tanks and without them tanks tend to overwhelm stuff later in the game. They are also not invulnerable either and it doesn't take too much to bring them down.