Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

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Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby theremin » 14 Jul 12, 4:40 pm

WARNING ... HIGHBROW BOOK LEARNING ... WARNING
"During the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition called war; and such a war, as if of every man, against every man.

"To this war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues.

"No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."

Sound familiar? The above are a series of (very famous) quotes from a guy called Thomas Hobbes, and he wrote them in 1651.


And, when you are caught in the dilemma or "shoot or be shot" - i.e. you might want to cooperate, but aren't sure if the other guy will cooperate, this broadly falls into the something known as 'The Prisoner's Dilemma':
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Nemesis_22 » 14 Jul 12, 4:57 pm

The reason can be summed up in either two ways.

The first is fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the armed individual in front of you whom you have never met, and don't know, and cannot trust - because if you trust them at the wrong time, you are dead. And everything you worked for is gone and lost forever. That, right there, is a genuine fear of loss, a knowledge of danger and threat that makes the heart race and the mouth run dry. During such moments of fear, if fear is felt, an individual will, unless they learn to control that fear, respond violently. If that response meets with a positive effect ("the other individual is dead, I am still alive, therefore this was the correct decision" sort of scenario) and thus, the fear is neutralised, they will continue to respond to the positive stimulus, and become more and more relaxed about shooting the other individual.

Why is there fear? You speak of armies, of war, but this isn't war. It is survival. In war, there are sides, there are uniforms, there is a way to identify who is friendly and who is not. But this isn't war. This is survival. The closest you can come to a war in this description is that it is an insurgency uprising, because there are no uniforms, no way to identify friend from foe, no way to know if the person you are talking to is on your side, or a psychopath.

The second reason is the result of the times we live in, and mild (to severe) sociopathy. They do it because for them, it is fun. It is an outlet of spite, of viciousness, a 'harmless trolling' activity, which they enjoy. This is a harmless environment for them to do so, as no actual physical trauma is inflicted, and whatever mental trauma, if any, that is inflicted is only temporary. These are individuals who may not necessarily be socially awkward, or misanthropic, but the reason they do it is because they enjoy making others suffer. If they do it to survive, they are not part of this group. But if they do it to people who are absolutely no threat and they gain nothing from it, that is just so they can experience murder vicariously.

That is not to say they are murderers in the making. They are not. This is, above all else, a game. They do not actually harm another human being. They do not actually kill someone. In this circumstance, it is a harmless activity that has no real emotional impact, and if confronted with actual, brutal violence, they will be (in most cases) sickened and appalled. It is, in effect, an outlet for sociopathic tendencies, which, in truth, most people have. It is more a symptom of growing societal apathy and disassociation from consequence and make believe violence combined.

Day Z is a perfect for the above circumstance. It promotes societal apathy (better him than me), the violence is make believe and fake (no one -really- gets hurt) and it removes consequences (no one will punish, arrest, or ban you for shooting someone. It is in fact encouraged).

It is, in short, a game perfect for trolls, as well as normal people. Both draw equal enjoyment out of it. But in many cases, for entirely different reasons.

Oh, and of course, when you get good enough gear, and guns, and are practiced at the game enough - hunting players is the endgame of Day Z. Its the natural challenge progression.

EDIT - Since you said highbrow book learning, I thought I'd throw my own into the hat :P
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby theremin » 14 Jul 12, 5:57 pm

The Hobbes quotes are from his work 'Leviathan' - in which he describes how society, prior to government (an absolute monarchy in his view being the preferred option), was a war of man against man - Hobbes wasn't talking about wars between states using armies, he was talking about all against all, and the resulting life of people being "...solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short." Which (IMHO) perfectly sums up the Day Z experience.

Hobbes believed that without government (who alone can wield force legally), society would descend into a vicious anarchy.

On a separate note, talk of 'responding to the positive stimulus' fits rather nicely in the iterated prisoner's dilemma, in which instead of making the choice to cooperate or defect once, you make that decision over and over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoners.27_dilemma
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Scarecrow » 14 Jul 12, 6:26 pm

You forgot to close off half of your quotations.

Anyway, I kill everyone in DayZ because (1) it's a game, (2) people shoot me when I don't shoot them and (3) they might have something I don't have.
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Nemesis_22 » 14 Jul 12, 6:49 pm

So 1) Disconnection 2) Fear response and 3) Sociopathy (greed symptoms)?
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Scarecrow » 14 Jul 12, 9:18 pm

Nemesis_22 wrote:So 1) Disconnection 2) Fear response and 3) Sociopathy (greed symptoms)?


Disconnection? What?

Fear response? Nope. Survival instinct. It's only fear response when they fire first.

And sociopathy. Stolen off Wiki: "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."

Which would apply perfectly well if I went and beat up the man at the bus stop for his iPhone, but this is a game, so in the context of the post apocalyptic world, it changes drastically.

Also, I could argue that when you kill others, you lose your rights, and thus me killing people who will kill me ingame is not sociopathic.
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Nemesis_22 » 14 Jul 12, 9:31 pm

The stuff I talked about in my post. Disconnection because, as you said, its a video game, and you don't associate real life parameters.

Survival instinct is another name for fear response. In order to prevent fear, or the to stave off the fear of death, you kill the other person.

And the greed/narcissim symptom of sociopathy doesn't make you a sociopath. Sociopathic tendencies show up in everyone, and just about everything. Its only because you have the disconnection that its a game that you have them in this at all.

Really, your arguments are the same ones I've made. You've just put them differently.
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Scarecrow » 14 Jul 12, 11:15 pm

Survival instinct isn't always fear related though. There can be no fear because you don't see it as a viable threat, but the idea of something as a threat in the future means you take pre-emptive action.

Why the **** are we discussing this?
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby RSOblivion » 15 Jul 12, 1:11 am

People seem to think that all this psychology **** is applicable to most people in a game scenario. Some people however really can't be included in it due to a level of intelligence allowing for full differentiation from the game world and the physical reality. The ability to act out roles in a game where you are rewarded with high stats for murders is kind of a moot point as to what's really being tested psychologically.

Personally I see games as either a test of skill or similar to a book as an adventure of the mind. If you look at DayZ it is an experience where you are placed in the position of the main character of most zombie stories and get to choose the script as to what to do, where to go and who to help/kill/avoid. Mostly I avoid, though if they are geared high then they are likely to get a shot in the head or back (whichever is more to my advantage) for the gear they have. I can't really associate any feeling for a game character unless I happen to know the person behind the other screen. Then I can also choose based on their personality what I will do. For instance I do know a gamer who if he played a character in DayZ that I wouldn't care killing over and over as he has zero care for anyone but himself to the detriment of friendships and relationships. Others I know from my clan for instance I would work with and help.

So to sum up the conclusions being drawn are usually from taking far too few variables into account to explain the users interactions with other users. To get an accurate picture you would need to know the psych profile of each user in great detail and the relationship with any other user, which in the end is totally unique to every different users personality...
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Nemesis_22 » 15 Jul 12, 1:31 am

Scarecrow wrote:Survival instinct isn't always fear related though. There can be no fear because you don't see it as a viable threat, but the idea of something as a threat in the future means you take pre-emptive action.

Why the **** are we discussing this?



Because why not? There's no need to get defensive. But a pre-emptive action to eliminate a threat is still a fear based response - not on the knowledge of what 'will' happen, but what 'might' happen. You can't prove they would have been.

And Oblivion, you are probably making up a third part of the picture. But I wouldn't go with intelligence being the reason per se, but rather a creative mindset versus a clinical one. Right side left side brain domination, I guess.

There are indeed too few variables. I just find it interesting that a game which has no punishment for what is, in a liberal sense, team killing, has so much of it, to the point where it is an established and accepted norm. Pschologically there is an interesting question as to why that is so.

However, I didn't study psyche - I studied criminology, so my mental skew is towards deviant and criminal behaviour. Probably messing with my judgement.
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby RSOblivion » 15 Jul 12, 5:33 am

One thing I have noticed about psychology and it's many branches is that it often gets too full of it's own ideas (the big names in the foundations of psychology) or fails to keep the big picture in view taking a narrow stance which pigeon-holes people/actions/causes incorrectly.

Hence I take a lot of 'official' psychology with a grain of salt. From personal experience in DayZ (and many other games) the psychology of the game means most players are disassociated with any real moral sense as they are fully aware that no harm can actually come to anyone in a game. If people are susceptible to harsh/violent/emotional reactions from interaction with people over a multi-player game then usually that would be a signal for an underlying issue they have IRL rather than ingame reactions.

But then this discussion only occurs in DayZ due to the reactions of people claiming others are mean for killing their avatar in a virtual environment when there is a scoring system based exactly on that ;)
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Scarecrow » 15 Jul 12, 10:57 am

I'm not being defensive, I just think this is a stupid conversation lol.

The fear thing, you may be right. But I don't see how a pre-emptive strike can be considered ALWAYS fear response.

Maybe it's a response and it's guided by one of two things: Fear and something else. I'm not sure what, but I feel like you can't just put fear in there as the only factor. Maybe control? By killing the player, the situation is contained?
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Nemesis_22 » 15 Jul 12, 2:27 pm

Keep in mind a fear response is -very- broad (as most psychological things are) so it covers panic response, irrational responses, survival instinct, pre-emptive aggression, deterrant responses... the list goes on and on and on, but fear is the underlying reason for all of them. Fear of different things maybe, but still fear.

Control is a very good term - because it controls fear, the situation, and the future. So the response is less about the fear and more about controlling the aspect and amount of it.
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Skorpion » 15 Jul 12, 2:53 pm

It's hard to see clear. Is it me? Is it fear?
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Re: Why Are People So Mean In Day Z?

Unread postby Scarecrow » 16 Jul 12, 5:09 am

It's 3D resolution and the awful sky pollution.
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