UNESCO/Palestine/Australia

[HandsomeSandwich]

The final piece that made me seriously doubt that statement was the situation during that period..

You can if you like but I'm not sure what else you need. I seriously doubt speculating with military logistics can compare to the shared opinion of a wide range of the key Israeli figures of the day which was - We got 'em and they weren't really **** to us.

[Bronze_D]

It's up to you to consider it,

but between that and the closure of Straits of Tiran by Egypt (which is effectively an act of war) there was no illusion there that war is coming.

Do you think Israel would stay complacent with Straits of Tiran effectively sealed from their shipping by Egypt? That's like having someone putting you on a choke hold while proclaiming no aggressive intent... it's not gonna fool anyone.

And the other thing to consider is this: WHEN did Menachem Begin made those statement? WHAT was the political climate to him at that point? WHO can benefit from his statement and HOW would it help him?

political statements... are made all the time, up and down, left and right like a twisted tree, no one said politic is pleasant or convenient to sort out.

But there are things that are difficult to mask:
1. troops concentration
2. popular sentiment

By late May 1967, the momentum in Egypt and the other arab states was such that even if you somehow brainwash Nasser and made him a pacifist, he would not be able to stop Egypt from starting a war... the preparation was made, the situation was perfect, the arab states sentiment were echoing and supporting it...

there was no stopping then.

[TRB]

If the UN/NATO decided to turn NSW into a Muslim state 'because there are a lot of Muslims there', tell me how accepting of that decision you'd be.

and then you understand why people don't like Israel.
Putting Israel in the middle-east was the most retarded idea anyone has ever had, why not put it somewhere that actually likes them? like the USA.

also money isn't the root of all evil, religion is.

religion has caused more death and destruction then all the other non-natural causes combined.

[Bronze_D]

in their case though there was no relocating...

if we use your analogy it's like turning NSW into a muslim state because there are a lot of Muslims there and then MOVING the entire muslims population out into the middle east..

which then still pose the problem of what to do with them then once moved of which there are 2 options (but only 1 viable one):
1. carve a territory for them somewhere in middle east (impossible given no one would agree to it)
2. integrate them with one of the muslim state (which is difficult but not impossible depending on the opinion of the states involved and their neighbor)

see the problem there?

Part of the problem is that Israel or rather WZO declared themselves as an independent state, to move them away further complicates number 2 solution since that would effectively dismantle them as well.

And that assumes they would want to move at ALL, what with the zionism ties with their claim of land of israel...

[MaddMoose]

prior to the conflict, 30-35 thousand troops were already stationed in the peninsula by Egypt and 30 thousand more were added along with 200 tanks in the first wave of buildup alone, and they were continuously building up there.

To put this in perspective, ISAF invaded Afghanistan with about the same number of troops.

[MuscularTeeth]

What quickly seems to happen here and everywhere else, is repeating what happened when and by whom. who has the longest list of grievances.
im of part greek descent.
It annoys the hell out of me when i hear of greeks talking about turkish oppression when it was the ottoman empire. who murdered who or starved which village... yes terrible things happened, but lets move ON. the current turks arent the same ones who killed those ancient greeks... it was hundreds of years ago.
im sure we all had a descendant who was massacred by the hordes of ghenis khan, but lets not hate them too. or a relative who died on one side or the other of the great war. hell my own uncle died at 'nam, i shouldnt hate the vietnamese at all.

what we need is a summary of what is the situation now, and how best that situation can come to some sort of mediated and binding agreement by both parties. both sides are clearly wronged by the other. that wont help.

lets not perpetuate the hate by reliving the past. lets grow together.

/inserts violins, and a choral choir with uplifting tones. and a rainbow and some bunnies on a green pasture with a unicorn prancing prancingly.

The conflict is 60 years old not several hundred and the point is that Israel have the political and cultural capital to re-write modern historical events so it bares shining light on them.

The solution is simple - the US need to stop blocking a two or one state settlement - which they've been doing since rougly the '70s.

Camp David was a joke as were the last ten years. Offer Israel security and Palestinians the full right of return, the '67 border with East Jeruslum and they could all move on. The overwhelming majority of the world support this idea - just not the powerful states.

yeah mate i understand that THIS isnt a couple of hundred years ole - i was referring to the ottomon empire and greece. and how the hate is still there. i agree 100% with your post, im just saying the thread was a lot of who did what to whom. which again doesnt get anyone anywhere.


*EDIT - IM SEEING NOAM CHOMSKY TOMORROW (SAT NIGHT) CANT WAIT TO HEAR HIS VIEWS.

[FryzieDelta]

it was themselves who wanted a war - just like every post '48 war Israel has been engaged in - it was voluntary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

[extremedavo]

it was themselves who wanted a war - just like every post '48 war Israel has been engaged in - it was voluntary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Yeah only this time Israel did not conduct pre-emtive actions and suffered some extensive losses.
Given the chance Egypt and Syria, with the backing of the Arab League of nations, would rather Israel be wiped off the face of the earth than negotiate. As each decade passes it will become less likely to happen considering the widening gap in defence technology.

[Bronze_D]

Ironically it was also in yom kippur war that israel's armored forces showed the massive gap between them and the arab states when they repelled the massive armored forces that were advancing with a fraction of the number.

After that and with the soviet collapse, most arab states are already perfectly aware that they cannot hope to remove israel with reasonable chance of success using military approach.

Either way though, given the change in the political sphere... it's very unlikely any of them still plans to do the old fashioned military offense, with some of them now western friendly and supplied they can't really afford to do something that brazen anymore.

[Sniper 2]

Why does the US back Israel so blindly ?

Iraq invaded Kuwait in the early 90's which mobilized the US to kick Iraq out, then why has Israel been able to occupy land for so long without any intervention ?

The best solution is for Israel to withdraw, stop their expansion of settlements and make peace with their neighbours.

[Novocaine]

*EDIT - IM SEEING NOAM CHOMSKY TOMORROW (SAT NIGHT) CANT WAIT TO HEAR HIS VIEWS.

Damnit I didn't even know he was over here. Melbourne one is tonight :(

[HandsomeSandwich]

it was themselves who wanted a war - just like every post '48 war Israel has been engaged in - it was voluntary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Yes a primary example to highlight my point, thanks.

Saddat offered a complete peace treaty with no conditions - Israel rejected this - making it, again, a war Israel voluntarily engaged in.

[HandsomeSandwich]

By late May 1967, the momentum in Egypt and the other arab states was such that even if you somehow brainwash Nasser and made him a pacifist, he would not be able to stop Egypt from starting a war... the preparation was made, the situation was perfect, the arab states sentiment were echoing and supporting it...

there was no stopping then.

Friday - drinking and bf3ing - I'll try and dig up evidence that the UK/US also didn't see it this way soon.

[MuscularTeeth]

*EDIT - IM SEEING NOAM CHOMSKY TOMORROW (SAT NIGHT) CANT WAIT TO HEAR HIS VIEWS.

Damnit I didn't even know he was over here. Melbourne one is tonight

i hope they will let me bring my little zoom h4n recorder... ill record it if i can

[FryzieDelta]

Saddat offered a complete peace treaty with no conditions

After trying to destroy the country and then realising "holy ****, they're going to win".

Israel rejected this - making it, again, a war Israel voluntarily engaged in.

Just because someone says that they give up doesn't mean they're not going to whack you in the back of the head with a plank of wood the moment you turn around. You ensure that they no longer have the means or motivation to try again. Stopping an invasion intent on taking your land then going and taking some of theirs while wiping out or routing every military unit in your way achieves this. Stopping an invasion then watering your garden does not.

If someone tried to punch me, I'd break their arm to ensure that it is some time that they could give it another crack, and the memory of that pain and the likelyhood of it happening again would give them second thoughts. Same principle.

Another example is the war between Russia and Georgia in South Ossetia. Russia didn't just stop at the border, an invisible line offers no protection, they kept on clearing to create a buffer before withdrawing.