War - Whoa whoa whoa, what is it good for

[Kremmen]

What would you make of these 2 videos then?

I dunno... tin-foil hat nutjob dribble?

I mean the second video is blatant Gaddafi propaganda... I'd believe the statements from hundreds of disparate rebel factions over his desperate attempt to retain power.

You're telling me the whole Arab Spring was orchestrated by western influences? To what end? It seems counter-productive to topple secular dictators, given that they are going to be replaced with a more diverse range of people in whatever democracies end up replacing them, some with more extremist Islamic tendencies.

You say that it was the people who did most of the fighting.

No. I said it was the people who did most of the *work*, ie. made their voices heard, proclaimed to the world that they wanted their country back.

Are you saying that the reports we got out of Libya where not propaganda?
It could also be argued that the people calling for their country back was also exagerated propaganda and that a majority of Libyans where happy with the status quo and required no military intervention?

I didn't really get a feel for your opinion from the first video, or was your argument that she was a tin-foil hat nutjob that bared no relevence?
or was it my questioning the whole situation that makes me the tin foil hat nutjob?

Listening and reading from people who had actually been in a country and reporting on it would tend to give them a little more credence than a few sound bites on the six oclock news from a shared video file footage and a goverment drafted report of events.
Whilst I agree that the west did not instigate the Arab spring, they do pick and choose who to support.
The support goes to those who benefit your geo political ideologies.

[Mekon]

Uhhh... didn't they get photos of Special Boat Service teams on the ground directing airstrikes? While i'm not convinced that the whole show was organized by western influences i'm also not particularly convinced that they had sfa to do with it like they all claim.

Oh, there were definitely people on the ground, and well before they were reported as being there.

I know they hit up my brother to head out there but he was prepping for another tour in Afhghanistan so had to decline. This was while they were still debating on whether to set up a no-fly interdiction zone. It does help to have spotters on the ground when you're sending in bombing strikes to take out armour and weapons caches.

[FryzieDelta]

In WW2 Germany thought we were the enemy, while we were shown they were the enemy.

Both views were correct. We were their enemy, they were our enemy.

Troops on both sides are willing to fight to the death because they believe what they are fighting for is right.

That, and because they were told to. A well known quote is "once that first round goes past your head, politics and all that **** just goes right out the window". Yes it was a fictional character that said it, but it's correct. If, as a soldier, you are told "take that position", you take that position. If you are told "kill this person", you kill that person. Whether you believe it is right or not is irrelevant, it's an order given based on several sources of intelligence and put through a decision making process.

They have been conditioned to do so.

I was never brainwashed when I joined the Army. How about you Moose, were you brainwashed?

You could claim if the people in the German army were educated on what was actually going on instead of being mislead they might have decided not to fight.

Not the military, that's a civilian decision. The military fights when it is told to, not because they believe it is right, nor do they just say "no" if they think that it's wrong.

If for instance the ADF were killing off innocent civilians for let's say peacefully protesting wall street no one would join and uphold the law they suggest as people believe it would be wrong, but people would join right away if these people were "terrorists" who threaten you and your family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/troops-des ... protesters

Uhhh... didn't they get photos of Special Boat Service teams on the ground directing airstrikes? While i'm not convinced that the whole show was organized by western influences i'm also not particularly convinced that they had sfa to do with it like they all claim.

You'd be hard pressed to find something like this where there weren't boots on the ground doing bits here and there to sway the balance.

[Matty]

They have been conditioned to do so.

I was never brainwashed when I joined the Army. How about you Moose, were you brainwashed?

Well, how do you know?

And that last point helped my argument, not yours

Actually reading all those points, why would you want to join the army? Seems all of them are "get trained to kill" and then, "Use those skills when I tell you, you get no say"

[FryzieDelta]

Well, how do you know?

Because, contrary to popular belief, I'm not a retard. Brainwashing requires a considerable period of time and effort and is a rather subtle process. There is nothing subtle about your platoon sergeant yelling in your face about how "the military only protects democracy, it doesn't practice it", and that "you joined us, we didn't join you".

Actually reading all those points, why would you want to join the army? Seems all of them are "get trained to kill" and then, "Use those skills when I tell you, you get no say"

If you got a say in who you went and killed that would make you a mercenary and/or a murderer. The whole idea of our military is to protect Australia and it's interests. It's not all about killing. Our Afghan deployment has the words 'Mentoring and Reconstruction' in it's title for a reason. They don't go out looking for a fight, they go out to support the local forces in the hunt for weapons caches and other nasty surprises that pose a risk to that nation and it's people, as well as improving community infrustructure and running workshops to give the locals useable skill sets.

Then look at all the stuff we do in our own neck of the woods. We aid in disaster relief, we lead peace keeping operations, we train neighbouring nations so they can look after themselves (does that count as the education you were harping on about before?). Being trained to kill is necissary because the reality is that not everyone can be reasoned with or will agree to compromises.

[Nekosan]

They have been conditioned to do so.

I was never brainwashed when I joined the Army. How about you Moose, were you brainwashed?

Well, how do you know?

And that last point helped my argument, not yours

Actually reading all those points, why would you want to join the army? Seems all of them are "get trained to kill" and then, "Use those skills when I tell you, you get no say"

Don't be silly, soldiers retain the ability to make a moral judgement on individual actions but i find it hilarious how many people think they should have any say whatsoever in deployments or if they should fight.

[Matty]

Well, how do you know?

Because, contrary to popular belief, I'm not a retard. Brainwashing requires a considerable period of time and effort and is a rather subtle process. There is nothing subtle about your platoon sergeant yelling in your face about how "the military only protects democracy, it doesn't practice it", and that "you joined us, we didn't join you".

Actually reading all those points, why would you want to join the army? Seems all of them are "get trained to kill" and then, "Use those skills when I tell you, you get no say"

If you got a say in who you went and killed that would make you a mercenary and/or a murderer. The whole idea of our military is to protect Australia and it's interests. It's not all about killing. Our Afghan deployment has the words 'Mentoring and Reconstruction' in it's title for a reason. They don't go out looking for a fight, they go out to support the local forces in the hunt for weapons caches and other nasty surprises that pose a risk to that nation and it's people, as well as improving community infrustructure and running workshops to give the locals useable skill sets.

Then look at all the stuff we do in our own neck of the woods. We aid in disaster relief, we lead peace keeping operations, we train neighbouring nations so they can look after themselves (does that count as the education you were harping on about before?). Being trained to kill is necissary because the reality is that not everyone can be reasoned with or will agree to compromises.

So does that mean the officer who gives the order is a mercenary and/or murderer?

Also you assume that's the only form of "brainwashing". And to clarify, I said conditioning, which is different to brainwashing.

Don't be silly, soldiers retain the ability to make a moral judgement on individual actions but i find it hilarious how many people think they should have any say whatsoever in deployments or if they should fight.

Well i don't even know where to begin with this.

[Nekosan]

Don't be silly, soldiers retain the ability to make a moral judgement on individual actions but i find it hilarious how many people think they should have any say whatsoever in deployments or if they should fight.

Well i don't even know where to begin with this.

Why? The average soldier should have no more input in deciding go/no-go on a military action than the average civilian, that's why we have elected government.

You join the military to serve your country, not to tell it what to do.

[FryzieDelta]

So does that mean the officer who gives the order is a mercenary and/or murderer?

Government recieves intelligence reports, government issues order, officers decide how order will be carried out and issue orders for the carrying out of their order, men on the ground go in and carry out orders.

It's a government decision, not military. Military just decides how to go about achieving the governments aims within the limitations they have.

Also you assume that's the only form of "brainwashing". And to clarify, I said conditioning, which is different to brainwashing.

I'm not assuming anything. And we are neither conditioned nor brainwashed into being more supportive of the governments decisions.

Well i don't even know where to begin with this.

I suggest you do find somewhere to start, because it is as valid a statement as yours.

[Matty]

Righto, well here we goes. Stating you are not conditioned is just as valid as saying you are, ie, neither can be proven.

It seems to me you guys have complete faith in what the justification is to join the army which is fine because that is your choice, but then it confuses me that you are trying to convince other people (in this case me) not to question what is going on with no information to back up this with. All I have gotten out of this is,

You don't question what is going on.
Questioning what is going on is wrong.
You are not trained,employed or qualified to question what is going on.
Anyone who questions anything is wrong.
These people who question the army are questioning you personally and need to be convinced otherwise.


Do what you will, which is the bases of the intended freedom we have (of which I assume you are supporting with joining the army) but I do have every right to question this just as you have every right to believe it.

And question it I will, and I will always question everything, as is what I do.

Personally I don't find these answers good enough for me to stop questioning the ideals of what is war, the world, the government and our defense force.

[FryzieDelta]

Stating you are not conditioned is just as valid as saying you are, ie, neither can be proven.

This to me just sound like you think the military runs some kind of indoctrination program that we're not aware of.

It seems to me you guys have complete faith in what the justification is to join the army which is fine because that is your choice, but then it confuses me that you are trying to convince other people (in this case me) not to question what is going on with no information to back up this with. All I have gotten out of this is

Where the hell did you get the idea that we're trying to convice you not to question anything. We're just stating our observation that your views on the military are wrong, we are not brainwashed, indoctrinated, conditioned or have gone under any other form of mine alteration to be more agreeable with the governments decisions, and neither had many other countries militaries world wide. I've heard very few conversations related to politics in the mess where the government was talked about in a positive way.

[Matty]

Where the hell did you get the idea that we're trying to convice you not to question anything. We're just stating our observation that your views on the military are wrong, we are not brainwashed, indoctrinated, conditioned or have gone under any other form of mine alteration to be more agreeable with the governments decisions, and neither had many other countries militaries world wide. I've heard very few conversations related to politics in the mess where the government was talked about in a positive way.

Cool man.

[Kremmen]

Where the hell did you get the idea that we're trying to convice you not to question anything. We're just stating our observation that your views on the military are wrong, we are not brainwashed, indoctrinated, conditioned or have gone under any other form of mine alteration to be more agreeable with the governments decisions, and neither had many other countries militaries world wide. I've heard very few conversations related to politics in the mess where the government was talked about in a positive way.

Doesn't the military treat soldiers as a collective and strip away the individualism? the military would not perform with hundreds of individuals running around with their own ideas thinking that they know best. A tight bond is fostered between soldiers to make them more like a family than just a group of random strangers.
you do not need to be brainwashed in order to be guided in a direction, any soldier starting to think outside the box becomes a liability and are quikly put back in their place by his fellow soldiers.

conditioning would make it easier to shoot another human being, world war 1 had more troops firing over the head of the enemy or not firing at all.
World war 2 the % had increased marginally
by the time Vietnam arrived they military had already learnt that human silhouette target training gave them a far higher % of soldiers actively engaging the enemy,During basic training for WWI and WWII the round targets where used and there where no round targets on the battlefield, just people.

so a percentage of conditioning does come into play in the military, otherwise they would still be shooting over head as it really isn't a normal condition to actually shoot another person.
The dehuminization of the enemy also plays a large role as well.

These would be considered conditioning

[Nekosan]

All I have gotten out of this is:

You don't question what is going on.

That's pretty much all soldiers do, the difference is that it isn't their job to dictate policy, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, you signed a contract.

Questioning what is going on is wrong.

This is also pretty common.

You are not trained,employed or qualified to question what is going on.

Correct, much like a cashier who is also shareholder doesn't dictate policy in his workplace. If a soldiers is told "go take that hill and kill the civilians on it" then he's quite within his rights to question the order (if it's illegal then he's obligated to refuse). What he's not likely to do is stop and say "i don't like the governments policies on this war, i'm taking my platoon back home" when he's asked to go on patrol.

Anyone who questions anything is wrong.

Any modern military encourages soldiers to question things, at the appropriate time and with appropriate reason.

These people who question the army are questioning you personally and need to be convinced otherwise.

Can't speak for Fryzie but i'm putting out my POV because I think you're slightly deluded (probably the same reason you're putting your out).

Do what you will, which is the bases of the intended freedom we have (of which I assume you are supporting with joining the army) but I do have every right to question this just as you have every right to believe it.

And question it I will, and I will always question everything, as is what I do.

Personally I don't find these answers good enough for me to stop questioning the ideals of what is war, the world, the government and our defense force.

Questioning what's going on is great but you need to get over the delusion that military personnel are somehow zombified to not do the same, the only difference is that the majority understand that they've signed a contract and they have a job to do. Realistically you've brainwashed yourself into believing that government is always evil and the military is full of faceless drones.

Doesn't the military treat soldiers as a collective and strip away the individualism? the military would not perform with hundreds of individuals running around with their own ideas thinking that they know best. A tight bond is fostered between soldiers to make them more like a family than just a group of random strangers.
you do not need to be brainwashed in order to be guided in a direction, any soldier starting to think outside the box becomes a liability and are quikly put back in their place by his fellow soldiers.

Thinking outside the box is highly encouraged, you need to get over you ideas about hollywood soldiers mate, the army wants thinking, individual soldiers who are highly capable in a team environment. "Here's the job, go do it to the best of your ability", are you really saying that soldiers should stand around and debate every action?

There's a pretty big difference between needing to follow orders being brainwashed, I get the feeling that if the military was run by you then they'd never actually be able to do anything (other than stand around listening to everyones opinion that is).

conditioning would make it easier to shoot another human being, world war 1 had more troops firing over the head of the enemy or not firing at all.
World war 2 the % had increased marginally
by the time Vietnam arrived they military had already learnt that human silhouette target training gave them a far higher % of soldiers actively engaging the enemy,During basic training for WWI and WWII the round targets where used and there where no round targets on the battlefield, just people.

"How you train is how you fight". You're talking about 2 different types of thing here, shooting at human silhouettes in training is more about the role repetition and muscle memory play in performance than conditioning to kill.

All you need to do is take a look at some statistics to see that PTSD is just as bad (if not worse) than it was in any of our previous wars, conditioning someone to kill without it effecting them isn't something you can do to an adult, our lifestyle and upbringing isn't particularly compatible with combat.

so a percentage of conditioning does come into play in the military, otherwise they would still be shooting over head as it really isn't a normal condition to actually shoot another person.
The dehuminization of the enemy also plays a large role as well.

These would be considered conditioning

That's entirely different to conditioning drones who will fly to another country and slit babies throats with no remorse and no questioning (which is what matty seems to be implying), I recommend "On Killing : The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Dave Grossman if you're actually interested in the subject, his writing on "wolves, sheep and sheepdogs" is pretty also interesting.


At the end of the day matty is implying that military personnel have some kind of subverted moral compass and they're unable to make the same decisions about right and wrong as everyone else is, someone is a little bit crazy.

[Matty]

Awesome post there, you really took everything out of context and assumed what i think while personally attacking me.

Cool man!