Women at the tip of the spear

[Nekosan]

Not really. Why does an admin clerk that drives a desk 99% of his/her career need to be able to do weekly 30km pack marches carrying 60kg worth of gear?

They don't need to be going THAT overboard but with the relatively small size of our fighting force they need to be capable of chucking on a pack and handling one patrol or engagement. The conflict in Afghanistan atm has proven yet again that you don't need to leave the wire to come under heavy attack, it doesn't matter if you're the regimental toilet scrubber or the general in command... you need to be able to fight effectively and you can't do that if you can't pick up your triple qtr pounder off the desk without wheezing.

[Jez]

jez.... the islamic won't rape a male.... fyi.

Pretty sure genital torture is still pretty bad and done to males. Also FYI, it's also feasible that an islamic terrorist group might give better treatment to a woman soldier due to their religious beliefs. Only case I can think of offhand is Jessica Lynch, not entirely applicable since she was captured by regular Iraqi forces, but she didn't get maltreated.

[Nekosan]

jez.... the islamic won't rape a male.... fyi.

Pretty sure genital torture is still pretty bad and done to males. Also FYI, it's also feasible that an islamic terrorist group might give better treatment to a woman soldier due to their religious beliefs. Only case I can think of offhand is Jessica Lynch, not entirely applicable since she was captured by regular Iraqi forces, but she didn't get maltreated.

TBH if i was captured I'd be more worried about the whole "cutting my head off on the internet and dumping my body in the garbage with my severed junk in my mouth" than about being raped. Islamic extremists seem to be more about the decapitation than the rape, statistically speaking any soldier is probably a hundred times more likely to be raped by friendly troops than by the enemy.

[wayne19540]

Heard this the otherday,


dunno. But they shouldnt lower standards that's for sure, if they can do it, just like the blokes bloody good on'em, get them in there.


/awaits news of first 'official' female SASR recruit...

^^^^^
Agree

[FryzieDelta]

TBH if i was captured I'd be more worried about the whole "cutting my head off on the internet and dumping my body in the garbage with my severed junk in my mouth" than about being raped.

If I was captured I'd be more worried about working out my location, working out escape plans, and plotting the death of everyone between me and the exit than my possible impending death. But each to their own.

Only case I can think of offhand is Jessica Lynch, not entirely applicable since she was captured by regular Iraqi forces, but she didn't get maltreated.

From memory all of her squadmates were killed and buried in shallow graves outside the hospital she was held in, and they threatened to amputate her leg. I'd call that mistreatment, but like you said she was better off than her male colleages who were executed.

[Jez]

From memory all of her squadmates were killed and buried in shallow graves outside the hospital she was held in, and they threatened to amputate her leg. I'd call that mistreatment, but like you said she was better off than her male colleages who were executed.

According to Jessica Lynch herself she wasn't mistreated at all, but there's still a huge amount of misinformation around the case.

[Nekosan]

From memory all of her squadmates were killed and buried in shallow graves outside the hospital she was held in, and they threatened to amputate her leg. I'd call that mistreatment, but like you said she was better off than her male colleages who were executed.

According to Jessica Lynch herself she wasn't mistreated at all, but there's still a huge amount of misinformation around the case.

Eleven other soldiers in the company were killed in the ambush and five other soldiers were captured (and later rescued). Her best friend, Lori Piestewa, was seriously wounded in the head and died in an Iraqi civilian hospital, possibly because it was not possible to perform delicate neurosurgery in that hospital under wartime conditions (such as intermittent electrical power).

From what wiki says and what I remember nobody was "executed", her squadmates died in the ambush and she was taken alive because her weapon "jammed", she didn't know how to clear the malfunction and(contrary to the initial story which pegged her as a hero) she supposedly never fired a shot, though the main story i've been told by US military friends is that it was found functional and with the safety still on (she never even tried to fight).

The entire "rescue" was just a pr stunt for the government(the video was staged) and they just walked in and collected her from an entirely civilian occupied hospital, the military was widely known to have vacated the area at least a day before hand.

Iraqi doctors and nurses later interviewed, including Dr. Harith Al-Houssona, a doctor in the Nasirya hospital, described Lynch's injuries as "a broken arm, a broken thigh, and a dislocated ankle". According to Al-Houssona, there was no sign of gunshot or stab wounds, and Lynch's injuries were consistent with those that would be suffered in a car accident, which Lynch verified when she stated that she got hurt when her Humvee flipped and broke her leg. Al-Houssona's account of events was later confirmed in a U.S. Army report leaked on July 10, 2003.[10][19]

The authorized biography, I Am A Soldier Too: The Jessica Lynch Story, by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Rick Bragg states that Lynch had been raped during her captivity, based on medical records and her pattern of injuries.[20]

Lynch does not recall any sexual assault and was "adamantly opposed to including the rape claim in the book", but that Bragg wore her down and told her that "people need to know that this is what can happen to women soldiers"

No rape and there were female doctors, a lot of people were rather pissed off that she just sat on her **** while friendlies returned fire and died while she did nothing and got a bronze star/purple heart.

The fact that she didn't even know how to unsafe her weapon is a prime example of why i think our military needs to revert to treating everyone as an infantryman first, everyone needs to be able to fight.

If I was captured I'd be more worried about working out my location, working out escape plans, and plotting the death of everyone between me and the exit than my possible impending death. But each to their own.

People always say that but it's a pile of macho tv bs, the first thing they do when they take you is beat your **** so bad you can barely move and then chain you naked in a basement somewhere. There's a reason that most western armies have changed their mentality to "never let them take you", that being that if they take you then you mother gets to watch you decapitated on the evening news, nobody escapes.

I actually watched a clip a while ago where RMC were doing their SERE school (or whatever their version is) and the SBS instructor pretty much said "go to ANY lengths to evade capture, nobody we fight has prison camps anymore and that Great Escape mentality just means you get to enjoy having your bollocks cut off on camera".

[MaddMoose]

The fact that she didn't even know how to unsafe her weapon is a prime example of why i think our military needs to revert to treating everyone as an infantryman first, everyone needs to be able to fight.

The Australian Army does, the Americans not so much.

[Sniper 2]

I have no prblem with women on the front lines providing they pass the fitness requirements. I think the ADF should remove women and men fitness requirements and replace with a " this is what you need to be able to do " requirements.

If I were on the frontline and wounded I'd want to know that my mates could drag me to safety and not have to struggle.

[FryzieDelta]

According to Jessica Lynch herself she wasn't mistreated at all, but there's still a huge amount of misinformation around the case.

From what wiki says and what I remember nobody was "executed", her squadmates died in the ambush and she was taken alive because her weapon "jammed", she didn't know how to clear the malfunction and(contrary to the initial story which pegged her as a hero) she supposedly never fired a shot, though the main story i've been told by US military friends is that it was found functional and with the safety still on (she never even tried to fight).

The entire "rescue" was just a pr stunt for the government(the video was staged) and they just walked in and collected her from an entirely civilian occupied hospital, the military was widely known to have vacated the area at least a day before hand.

Yeah, that's completely differant to the version I heard. But the claims of the rescue being bogus also don't quite sit right.

The fact that she didn't even know how to unsafe her weapon is a prime example of why i think our military needs to revert to treating everyone as an infantryman first, everyone needs to be able to fight.

Someone has to be mentally retarded to be unable to set an F88 to 'fire', so there is no excuse in the ADF. It really is as simple as pressing a button. Even though Lynch was a yank with a differant weapon, I assure you she knew how to take the safety off her personal weapon.

If I was captured I'd be more worried about working out my location, working out escape plans, and plotting the death of everyone between me and the exit than my possible impending death. But each to their own.

People always say that but it's a pile of macho tv bs, the first thing they do when they take you is beat your **** so bad you can barely move and then chain you naked in a basement somewhere. There's a reason that most western armies have changed their mentality to "never let them take you", that being that if they take you then you mother gets to watch you decapitated on the evening news, nobody escapes.

I actually watched a clip a while ago where RMC were doing their SERE school (or whatever their version is) and the SBS instructor pretty much said "go to ANY lengths to evade capture, nobody we fight has prison camps anymore and that Great Escape mentality just means you get to enjoy having your bollocks cut off on camera".

Only partly right. The ADF doesn't have a "never let them take you" mentality, but you are both expected to and are legally obligated to do everything you reasonably can to evade capture. That instructor is teaching the way a sane, normal person with a strong instinct for self preservation should deal with the situation. I have however had the privilage to speak to someone who has escaped captivity from people who tortured and intended to kill him, but he does admit to not being entirely normal and said an escape should only be attempted if you believe you are dead either way, that way you at least have a chance.

I'd be interested in seeing that clip if you have a link.

[Nekosan]

The fact that she didn't even know how to unsafe her weapon is a prime example of why i think our military needs to revert to treating everyone as an infantryman first, everyone needs to be able to fight.

The Australian Army does, the Americans not so much.

We have exactly the same problems as the yanks do, once you complete your specialist training you focus on those skills and rifleman training is that thing you did back in the day. Sure everyone gets supplemental training before a deployment but many troops are deployed with zero expectation that they will see combat.

Someone has to be mentally retarded to be unable to set an F88 to 'fire', so there is no excuse in the ADF. It really is as simple as pressing a button. Even though Lynch was a yank with a differant weapon, I assure you she knew how to take the safety off her personal weapon.

Any 15 year old could tell you how to select fire on most rifles these days, having the skill and mindset to do so under enemy fire (especially in an ambush situation) is an entirely different thing. I can easily see a POG getting no response from a trigger pull and just panicking rather than running through a weapons drill, there's a difference between doing something once in boot and doing it regularly under pressure.

I'd be interested in seeing that clip if you have a link.

I can't remember what doco it was from but it must be the standard spiel they give them because I remember something extremely similar (and slightly humorous) involving a recruit digging a hole during "Commando: on the front line" when it was on SBS (I remember the guy joking about life not being a movie or something).

edit: we're pretty off topic btw, none of this has anything to do with women specifically in the Aus Military.

[Kremmen]

What I am understanding so far is the only enemy we have is Islamic fundumentalists who may or may not mistreat male or female soldiers.

by the sounds of it, none of our forum posters have the belief we will be out of Afghanistan in 5 years, (time given to implement the change) or do they see the middle east as the only place for our troops to face combat?

We should be more about bringing our troops home reguardless of being male or female.

[Nekosan]

What I am understanding so far is the only enemy we have is Islamic fundumentalists who may or may not mistreat male or female soldiers.

by the sounds of it, none of our forum posters have the belief we will be out of Afghanistan in 5 years, (time given to implement the change) or do they see the middle east as the only place for our troops to face combat?

We should be more about bringing our troops home reguardless of being male or female.

I can't really see a full withdrawal until the big boys figure out a way to maintain their opium production without our troops guarding the fields

Bringing our troops home doesn't mean we won't be fighting in the future, remember we have the most populous muslim(not that religion matters) nation on earth practically a stones throw from our northern border and they have a lot of the population living in borderline poverty. Some people probably see it as silly but it isn't too big a stretch to see the US and Europe suffering the worst recession ever just down the road, leaving us pretty much ripe for the picking by whoever decides they want to try it on.

To quote Vegetius: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you wish for peace, prepare for war"), the comparatively small size of our military makes women serving on the front line (if properly integrated) a very valuable asset to have.

[Otto-matic]

Ahhh, the Yellow Peril. Older members in my family are still convinced some Asian nation will invade if we let down our guard even a little Never mind that invading Australia would be an extremely difficult prospect even without allies.

I for one support women in whatever part of the military they wish to get in to, provided they can pass the same physical and mental requirements currently required by that position.

[Jez]

Any 15 year old could tell you how to select fire on most rifles these days, having the skill and mindset to do so under enemy fire (especially in an ambush situation) is an entirely different thing. I can easily see a POG getting no response from a trigger pull and just panicking rather than running through a weapons drill, there's a difference between doing something once in boot and doing it regularly under pressure.

According to some reports she had a broken arm, thigh, and dislocated ankle, I think having the presence of mind to run through a weapons drill would be incredibly difficult under those circumstances.