Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Spl@! » 15 Mar 11, 12:43 pm

Mekon wrote:Rads


Thankyou for pointing that out. I should have typed Rems, not Rads.
My mistake.

Re Kyoto - the greens I taunted don't know that. They should, they really should.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaki ... 6021782079
A FIRE is burning at the No.4 nuclear reactor at Japan's stricken Fukushima No. 1 power plant, Prime Minister Naoto Kan confirmed today, warning that dangerously high levels of radiation are leaking from the area.

Delivering a message to the nation, Kan said people within a 20km radius of the plant should evacuate, while those a further 10km away should keep indoors and shut windows.


It's slowly getting out of control.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Lurk » 15 Mar 11, 12:56 pm

There was an interesting piece from Ziggy about how he thinks that something else has gone wrong, and that the first two cooling methods breaking shouldn't have caused what they're seeing.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 163293.htm

Also, not sure that all of this **** is relevant to this thread. Just sayin'.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby nudge » 15 Mar 11, 1:03 pm

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 03:35 CET)
Japanese authorities yesterday reported to the IAEA at 21:05 CET that the reactors Units 1, 2 and 3 of the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant are in cold shutdown status. This means that the pressure of the water coolant is at around atmospheric level and the temperature is below 100 degrees Celsius. Under these conditions, the reactors are considered to be safely under control...

The fire at building 4 is outside and it is reported there are no active fuel rods in that building regardless.

So many conflicting stories out there though.

The fires and explosions are not at all related to the plants being nuclear plants, hydrogen gas is pretty standard in a lot of cooling systems, including our own coal plants in Australia. I have worked to track down a hydrogen leak at Liddel Power station. The earth quake i imagine caused tiny fractures in the hydrogen pipes causing hydrogen to pool and then explode.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Mekon » 15 Mar 11, 1:08 pm

Wyld wrote:@mpesce: Ok, to make things clear: 1 - 3 Sieverts of exposure over a few days is generally believed to be fatal.

The ICRP (International Commission on Radiological Protection) estimates a 5% chance of a fatal cancer per Sv of exposure. linky

Given that the leak was only for a short period (assuming there hasn't been major spin and damage control on the reality), people are probably relatively safe. Given that the reported reading was 8.2 mSv/hour, you'd need to be exposed to it for 121 hours to reach 1 Sv and even then, it's only going to be 1 fatal cancer case out of every 20 people (statistically).

Still. Not something I'd be happy about.
Last edited by Mekon on 15 Mar 11, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Marius » 15 Mar 11, 1:11 pm

I don't really see disaster safety of nuclear power plants as a huge issue. Coal plants have bad health effects as well. They just won't be killing 20 year olds.

The biggest problem from fossil fuels is all the wars they incite in absence of a real renewable alternative good enoough to satisfy energy demands without resorting to overseas hotspots. If nuclear energy reduces Australia's reliance on politically unstable energy sources, fine by me.

Though that's probably more relevant to oil, which we still need.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby André Axe'm » 15 Mar 11, 1:41 pm

I vaguely agree with Ziggy, I am surprised that so many backup systems broke.

Still it was a massive earthquake then tsunami. I don't expect much to work well after that.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby nudge » 15 Mar 11, 1:43 pm

Marius wrote:I don't really see disaster safety of nuclear power plants as a huge issue. Coal plants have bad health effects as well. They just won't be killing 20 year olds.

The biggest problem from fossil fuels is all the wars they incite in absence of a real renewable alternative good enoough to satisfy energy demands without resorting to overseas hotspots. If nuclear energy reduces Australia's reliance on politically unstable energy sources, fine by me.

Though that's probably more relevant to oil, which we still need.


I read a paper while at uni regarding the radiation pushed into the atmosphere from carbon-14 present in coal. Radiation figures from it where higher then radiation from modern nuclear plants. Obviously not applicable in this case though :)

Realistically if Australia wasn't so anti nuclear we would be selling land in SA for bunkers and having other nations pay us HEAPS to store there nuclear waste. Taking advantage of the fact that we are the most geostable (or whatever the word is) Continent in the world. I'd be happy if we get some nuclear plants before we are all suffering from brownouts and our struggling old coal plants die.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Lurk » 15 Mar 11, 1:59 pm

Nobody would be alright with that idea though. There's always the mentality of "I don't really care, just don't do it near me" which means that no matter where you put it, people will complain. This means nobody wants to put it anywhere for fear of political backlash, even though it's a good idea.

Also heard some discussion about the theory that because we're on such a large and relatively stable plate, some people think that the plate may crack right down the middle in a big enough crash and that'd leave us with a giant tectonic crack down the middle of the outback. I don't really think that that's very likely personally, because we're definitely not the biggest of the plates.

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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Spl@! » 15 Mar 11, 2:00 pm

NZ and PNG really got punk'd, when it comes to tectonics.

edit: what is up with the African plate in the above image.. it's pulling from all sides, and pushing nothing...
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Marius » 15 Mar 11, 2:07 pm

Well they wouldn't even exist otherwise.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Faint_Man_Australia » 15 Mar 11, 2:09 pm

Spl@! wrote:What is up with the African plate in the above image.. it's pulling from all sides, and pushing nothing...

One of two things:
1st (and most likely) - It's not moving and all plates around it are moving away from it.
2nd (and most awesome) - It's sinking and the other plates are not moving.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby TRB » 15 Mar 11, 2:22 pm

Lurk wrote:even though it's a good idea.



Except that us building nuclear plants isn't a good idea and that doesn't even have anything to do with any hazards or waste storage.

by 2020 china will have doubled the worlds consumption of nuclear fuel from what it is now, yet the forecast is that on current consumption there is about 70 years of commercially viable uranium left, after that it becomes way more expensive due to the amount of refining needing to be done to extract low grade ore.

so if china is building enough reactors to double consumption then the forecast, logically, would be halved, no?

additionally we don't have the facilities to make the cores so it'd be likely that we'd be getting in line with anyone else wanting them which means we'd not even be starting construction for 10-15 years after approval anyway.


instead of wasting all that money on something which isn't going to be a reality until, at best, 2030, why not position ourselves as world leaders in geo-thermal tech?
we already have the largest plants in the world running, why not put that money into improving their design [for instance by getting rid of the heat exchange part and making it a closed loop coil system on an 8km bore] and then we'd be the ones sought out for our clean, efficient and exceedingly safe power generation tech.

the biggest hurdle to overcome with geo-thermal currently is getting someone to py for the deep bores needed for an efficient system.
8km should be a minimum, currently less then 5km is a maximum.

we have the people who know how to do these things, it just needs the funding to get one running to prove to the laymen out there that it works.
its a far better solution then some short-term nuclear power plants and their 10,000 year waste.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby André Axe'm » 15 Mar 11, 2:36 pm

So there is enough uranium around to power Australia for the next century, and we don't have to worry about not getting full use of them before the fuel runs out, as the reactors only last about 20 years.

Sounds good, let's start.
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby Spl@! » 15 Mar 11, 3:33 pm

André Axe'm wrote:So there is enough uranium around to power Australia for the next century, and we don't have to worry about not getting full use of them before the fuel runs out, as the reactors only last about 20 years.

Sounds good, let's start.


A single generation of them for each city, would buy us time to effectively switch over to solar/wind/tidal power - fully R&D'd to be effective, cheaper (or just not self-priced out of the market), and betterer.


We have the technology, let's rebuild him.
It worked for the god damned 6 million dollar man, it'll work for our power needs too!
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Re: Labor MP's want nuclear power debate

Unread postby aussie » 15 Mar 11, 3:42 pm

André Axe'm wrote:So there is enough uranium around to power Australia for the next century, and we don't have to worry about not getting full use of them before the fuel runs out, as the reactors only last about 20 years.

Sounds good, let's start.

Well Japan got almost 40 years out of Fukushima 1.
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