Rudd or Gillard?

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Preferred PM.

Kevin Rudd
50
47%
Julia Gillard
16
15%
Candeh
40
38%
 
Total votes : 106

Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby ub3r » 25 Feb 12, 4:51 pm

the Albanese press conference if you missed it.

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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Sathias » 25 Feb 12, 5:26 pm

skitzor wrote:
Datafunk wrote:anyone else think its retarded, that apparently the majority of australians want rudd as PM, but the people who actually get a say in it, want julia as PM... i thought, in a democracy, it is the peoples choice who gets to be PM, not some innner circle ****. :?

this has already been addressed.

skitzor wrote:
unspoken wrote:Don't really follow this rubbish too much but I voted for Kevin for PM so that is who should be PM.

you voted for the party. anyone who thinks they voted for Rudd should learn about Australian politics and our electoral system. this isn't America.

I prefer our system in this situation.


There is also the inconvenient fact that if people "voted for Rudd", that was two elections ago :P
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Wyld » 25 Feb 12, 5:38 pm

Sathias wrote:There is also the inconvenient fact that if people "voted for Rudd", that was two elections ago :P

Emphasis Added.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby skitzor » 25 Feb 12, 7:18 pm

Sathias wrote:There is also the inconvenient fact that if people "voted for Rudd", that was two elections ago :P

in a logical world that point shouldn't be needed. it makes an already true point, even truer.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Jez » 25 Feb 12, 10:04 pm

Nekosan wrote:Times like these make me hate the preferential system, it pretty much ensures that there will only ever be 2 parties and turns everyone else into a pathetic joke.


Explain how it does?

As I understand it a preferential system is actually far kinder to smaller parties than a first-past-the-post system, because you can vote for a small party and still give your preference to one major party over the other.

A non-preferential system would be much more likely to give advantages to larger parties because any vote for a small party on either side of the political spectrum is effectively a vote not cast for the dominant left/right party. Case in point would be US presidential elections where third party candidates like Ralph Nader have run and been accused of stealing votes/ensuring a win for the other side of politics.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Ralph Wiggum » 25 Feb 12, 10:45 pm

skitzor wrote:
Sathias wrote:There is also the inconvenient fact that if people "voted for Rudd", that was two elections ago :P

in a logical world that point shouldn't be needed. it makes an already true point, even truer.


Yeah but in the real world the voting public are fickle and hold grudges ;)
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Wyld » 26 Feb 12, 9:26 am

Speaking as a "just a guy" here, this is what I'm seeing.

Rudd is about him. He's been pushing him, it's all about how unfair it was to him, that the government should be lead by him. I can see his point there, what happened when he was in power was pretty radical. He won't address *why* it happened though, aside from "I've made some mistakes, here are a few choice ones (oh and here's a carrot to the power brokers on how I'd fix that mistake), and I've changed".

I've also noticed a very old tactic when directly asked a question which leads into defining a problem, or to address an open issue. "This issue is very clear, and I'm standing on my previous statement" and "The real question on that issue is X so let me answer with Y". Even if he did have a reasonable point or standing on the point, it's double speak designed to misdirect.

Notice when he uses jokes. It's difficult to be rational/logical when laughing. It's distracting. This concept is used by magicians the world over.

Reviewing what I see of him, the more I see this as "the Kevin Show" and not about the Labor Party. The more I see this as "I should be there because wrong was done to me, and I'm the only thing to save us from The Great Threat".

There's next to no substance on what's next if he's in.



Now, my musing over Julia.

Logically, I seriously do not see her *wanting* to instigate the leadership change. No tactician, indeed no person with half a brain, would choose to lead after that moment. It's a poisoned chalice. Yes, you have the main job but you burn a considerable chunk of the populace and the party in doing such. She knew that. You'd have to be delusional to not know it.

The change of leadership occurred because the machine wasn't working. How much effort was made to get it to work, is unknown, and an important factor. I can think of a half dozen reasons why this information hasn't really come out, because all it does is damage *everyone* in this tussle. Yes, we have an assortment of examples as to what went wrong, but we don't have any real information on what was done to fix this.

This information would damage Rudd quite a lot, and it will define how the Party couldn't fix the issues and went to such a radical move.

Julia is, however, in her position to fix the damage and get on with the job. It's more than a sound bite, it's what her role really is. AND to actually govern. It's a hell of a task, and I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, that's for damn sure.

The fact that she's actually doing it, I think, does have to count for something.

Everything about Rudd seems to be emotional.

Everything about Gillard seems to be logical.



There are still some interesting questions though. Like, if Rudd was so "unstable", why was he given one of the most important ministerial positions? Yes, he seems born for the role, but those skills would apply directly from managing interaction with countries (a somewhat difficult and large issue) to managing interaction with ministers. For that, I think about The Long Game. International diplomacy is The Long Game. Running a country is also, but it's also balanced with The Tight Game. You need to be up on everything, right now, and be ready to shift and act accordingly.

That's where Rudd got it wrong. He micro-managed everything, and again, the emotional, controlling side of his nature (not a good thing, not a bad thing, just A thing) went too far within his party.



I don't think Rudd should be PM. I certainly think he's head and shoulders above the opposition, but that's a different issue. One with Rudd also knows, and why he's drawing it into the argument. Because the argument about him, alone, as leader of the government isn't strong enough.

No matter how emotional many of us may feel about it.


I could be waaaay off base, I'm just another remote observer, a punter like the rest of us. But yeah, those are my current thoughts and analysis.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Sathias » 26 Feb 12, 9:33 am

The thing I noticed about Rudd yesterday is when asked about if it was him that sabotaged the 2010 election through timed damaging leaks, there was NO denial whatsoever. He did the old thing of "Yeah I'm the anti-christ" etc etc

I think the only person who has come out of this looking good is Albo.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Gotrek1966 » 26 Feb 12, 9:41 am

*Votes GoN Party* :D
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Devourer221 » 26 Feb 12, 11:21 am

i think MMP would be a better system than what we have now, purely on the basis of the majority government no longer being an issue in terms of labour vs liberal and it would allow smaller partys a much larger influence, in saying this it is slightly more complex because you are voting for a person AND a party
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby PalZer0 » 26 Feb 12, 1:07 pm

I honestly can't bring myself to support either side because I feel they don't represent me on issues that are important to me. It's also no good voting for someone outside of Libs/Labor when all their preferences go to one of the two sides anyway.

I feel the whole system needs to change.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Jez » 26 Feb 12, 1:22 pm

PalZer0 wrote:It's also no good voting for someone outside of Libs/Labor when all their preferences go to one of the two sides anyway.

I feel the whole system needs to change.


Except that you can order your own preferences?...

The number of people in this country who don't understand our voting system astounds me.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Kremmen » 26 Feb 12, 1:33 pm

Jez wrote:
PalZer0 wrote:It's also no good voting for someone outside of Libs/Labor when all their preferences go to one of the two sides anyway.

I feel the whole system needs to change.


Except that you can order your own preferences?...

The number of people in this country who don't understand our voting system astounds me.


That may be because our children arn't taught about politics, they get their ideas from the media and their parents, both of which still dont understand politics.
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby PalZer0 » 26 Feb 12, 4:00 pm

Jez wrote:Except that you can order your own preferences?...

In the end, that doesn't really make any difference because preferences pretty much always go to one of the two major parties anyway whether you vote independent, Green, Sex Party or anyone other than Labor or Liberal/Nationals.

EDIT: Mark Newton had a brilliant idea on how to solve the leadership mess.
Mark Newton wrote:GG could settle #respill by saying, "**** it, we'll have an executive council of Ministers and NO PRIME MINISTER ANYMORE." #constitution

https://twitter.com/#!/NewtonMark/statu ... 5464167424
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Re: Rudd or Gillard?

Unread postby Artful-dodgeR » 26 Feb 12, 4:16 pm

*shrug*

Works for me!
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