Warfare Balance Discussion

[Freeborne]

1 person agrees with you?
MG nests won't put a dint on my tanks armour. They're really only useful against satchel attacks.
HESCO walls are only useful if your base is on high-ground, with no hills overlooking it.

Therefore, HESCO walls are mostly useless on Takistan.

At least on Chernarus there's enough places to place a base where you can't be tank sniped. Altar is probably the best example of where you can build a base completely protected by just HESCO walls.

Remove medium/long arty from parameters, did that.
FF permanently disabled, did that.
Base Patrols enabled (default), did that.


Another few revisions and I will completely love this edition.

[Baskerville]

HESCO walls are only useful if your base is on high-ground, with no hills overlooking it.

Hmm I vaguely remember saying that a few posts back but i'm so glad you said it again.

Remove medium/long arty from parameters, did that.
FF permanently disabled, did that.
Base Patrols enabled (default), did that.

Wat?

[Tonmeister.]

*mounts a really tall horse*

that poor horse.

lol at the off topics comments ... maybe a tweak here or there if your feeling horny later on..

try new easy mountable horse. Its very tall..

[Freeborne]

LOL. Sloppy seconds?

Remove medium/long arty from parameters, did that.
FF permanently disabled, did that.
Base Patrols enabled (default), did that.

Wat?

Those were already done in Warfare Rebalanced. Like I said when Radioman first started this version, I'd already made all the necessary changes, but he said the problem with my version was I made too many changes and he was only going to make a few simple changes. It's only a matter of time before Radioman fixes those few remaining 'bugs' and our versions are almost identical

Our two versions are now more alike than they are to Benny's Edition. Not complaining either, I like that people finally agree with my changes, even if they don't want to admit it.

Warfare Balance Discussion.
Warfare RE (Radioman Edit)
Warfare RE Balance
Warfare REBalance
Warfare Rebalanced

[sabretas]

People still won't balance the teams.

Makes all of this work **** pointless tbh. You get the same results, just in different ways.

and it has allways been the same, just the like the game running now, i don't think it will ever change

[MarkusNemesis]

LOL. Sloppy seconds?
Warfare Balance Discussion.
Warfare RE (Radioman Edit)
Warfare RE Balance
Warfare REBalance
Warfare Rebalanced

^ Yet mine is being much more accepted than yours ever was. At the end of the day, it's not how balanced you make it, but how you sell it.

[Sky Monster]

I would like to begin discussing the replacement of Tunguska missiles with R73s. This change does not have to be permanent, but I would like to see it implemented and tested in a full game to see if viable. My reasoning is Tunguska missiles are quite simply b*llshit.

I am in support of such a change. Thoughts?

[Freeborne]

*still on high horse*
Yes I support this, but Rebalanced did this too. All Tunguska missiles were removed from the game and replaced with R73s or Sidewinders.

I took off in a F35B, was doing 500 k/h and dumped 4 flares and still got insta-killed from a Tunguska from 2+ KM away

Also, a few bugs:
The F35B has it's AA missiles replaced (4 instead of 2), but they don't work. Looks like you fixed that in v2 though, haven't tested yet.

The M6 Linebacker's have a pretty **** tab-locking range. OPFOR were flying all over us in jets and choppers and the M6 refused to spot them on radar (although our AAR picked them up fine). The M6's kept dying and OPFOR air were untouchable.

The F35B is still 80,000, and over-priced if it's BLUFOR's only viable AA.

You removed the sidewinders from the AH1Z, so BLUFOR currently have NO decent AA at all to counter the OPFOR jets flying at 1000m.

Approve of these changes:
- PMC default resistance (same as UHAX' version)
- Goshawk at G3

Disapprove:
- 100 round "Beta C" magazines? Is that the MG36? If so, it should just be moved to Gear 2 (like in Rebalanced)
- Removing concrete walls. They're needed, just need some nerfing.


I don't think Resistance needs Shilkas anyway. Who takes towns from Resistance using choppers? By the time you have Air, both teams should own most of the map.

[MarkusNemesis]

*still on high horse*
Yes I support this, but Rebalanced did this too. All Tunguska missiles were removed from the game and replaced with R73s or Sidewinders.

I took off in a F35B, was doing 500 k/h and dumped 4 flares and still got insta-killed from a Tunguska from 2+ KM away

Also, a few bugs:
The F35B has it's AA missiles replaced (4 instead of 2), but they don't work. Looks like you fixed that in v2 though, haven't tested yet.

The M6 Linebacker's have a pretty **** tab-locking range. OPFOR were flying all over us in jets and choppers and the M6 refused to spot them on radar (although our AAR picked them up fine). The M6's kept dying and OPFOR air were untouchable.

The F35B is still 80,000, and over-priced if it's BLUFOR's only viable AA.

You removed the sidewinders from the AH1Z, so BLUFOR currently have NO decent AA at all to counter the OPFOR jets flying at 1000m.

Approve of these changes:
- PMC default resistance (same as UHAX' version)
- Goshawk at G3

Disapprove:
- 100 round "Beta C" magazines? Is that the MG36? If so, it should just be moved to Gear 2 (like in Rebalanced)
- Removing concrete walls. They're needed, just need some nerfing.


I don't think Resistance needs Shilkas anyway. Who takes towns from Resistance using choppers? By the time you have Air, both teams should own most of the map.

The addition of Shilkas was to stop people going over board with the cheap helos at air 0.

Concrete walls got the axe as they're scripted objects, and because of their size, they get spammed (a wall of them around a factory counts as spam in this case). So this creates a massive overhead on the server's performance.

The MG36 mags were removed because of BIS being lazy. Looking at half the weapons that can 'use' the Beta C mags, they wouldn't fit into them (Eg. Mk16 EGLM), and they made half of BLUFOR's weapons a simple question of "Can it use 100 round mags? If yes, I'll use it, otherwise, nope.avi".

The Goshawk was always at gear 3, but the way the default loadouts were made, they had their own independent gear level, so I just upped that load out one level.

I REMOVED PMC as default resistance.

If you've got enemy air flying at less than 3 KMs, use the M6s. You really seem to believe I don't think when I make my changes.

The F35 is over priced for it's niche primarily because it can **** your 100,000 dollar jet up and still have missiles to spare. If you die to a Tung, then you're not flying it right, or you need to get your team's **** together. Also 4 flares isn't enough, surely you'd know this.

[Goshawk]

The Tunguska is under priced for its niche primarily because it can f**K your 80,000 jet up and still have missiles to spare. If you die to a F35 then you’re not flying it right, or you need to get your teams s**t together.



The F35 NEEDS to be relatively cheap for two reasons:

1: No one will use it otherwise, mainly because of reason number two

2: Tungs, the F35 will still get raped by Tunguskas



You have to remember that the Tunguska is OpFor’s #1 game changer. Just because the F-35 has x4 AA missiles doesn’t mean dick. The Su-34 also has x4 AA missiles and is usually more than a match for F-35s, then throw in the possibility of Tunguskas locking down sections of the map. The price difference comes because the F-35 only has x4 weapon slots while the Su-34 has x10 plus eighty odd unguided rockets.



If anything I’d be bringing the F-35’s price down to roughly 50,000 as they are without a doubt a ‘glass cannon’ in every sense of the phrase. Sure you might get airbourne but you can only hunt other air targets and attempting to attack OpFor ground targets/base will usually result in a Tung missile to the face.

[MarkusNemesis]

The Tunguska is under priced for its niche primarily because it can f**K your 80,000 jet up and still have missiles to spare. If you die to a F35 then you’re not flying it right, or you need to get your teams s**t together.



The F35 NEEDS to be relatively cheap for two reasons:

1: No one will use it otherwise, mainly because of reason number two

2: Tungs, the F35 will still get raped by Tunguskas



You have to remember that the Tunguska is OpFor’s #1 game changer. Just because the F-35 has x4 AA missiles doesn’t mean dick. The Su-34 also has x4 AA missiles and is usually more than a match for F-35s, then throw in the possibility of Tunguskas locking down sections of the map. The price difference comes because the F-35 only has x4 weapon slots while the Su-34 has x10 plus eighty odd unguided rockets.



If anything I’d be bringing the F-35’s price down to roughly 50,000 as they are without a doubt a ‘glass cannon’ in every sense of the phrase. Sure you might get airbourne but you can only hunt other air targets and attempting to attack OpFor ground targets/base will usually result in a Tung missile to the face.

Or I could bring Tungs up to 10-12K. Tungs are a lot more vulnerable than Air is, as the tung has a lot of things on the ground that can kill it, vs the F35 which only has the Tung to worry about.

I've seen the F35 flown to good effect so far in the game. With people dedicating themselves to maintaining air superiority. Sure, the Tungs still get them, but They've been fulfilling their role.

If I make F35s dirt cheap, then it makes all of OPFOR's air almost totally useless. You can avoid a Tung missile, but you can't easily avoid an F35's GAU-12 shooting all over your Su-XX. So the best I see fit is to raise the price of the Tung to 10-12K. Sure it's a niche unit, but it can't fly around the map at 600KM/hr, all it can do is sit still and control a 5 KM radius.

Also, I've a proposal.

The UAVs in Arma are sorely under used, so I feel like making them purchasable from the air factory, and mounting .50 cal guns onto them and making them 20k from the AF. They'll have no other weapons apart from the .50 cal, and if both have a laser designator, then both will retain that, otherwise, the one with it will lose it (maybe).

[Goshawk]

You can avoid a Tung missile, but you can't easily avoid an F35's GAU-12 shooting all over your Su-XX. So the best I see fit is to raise the price of the Tung to 10-12K. Sure it's a niche unit, but it can't fly around the map at 600KM/hr, all it can do is sit still and control a 5 KM radius

If aircraft are getting into dogfights then OpFor pilots are doing it wrong. And the Tung is more than capable of moving. Perched up on a hill the Tung is a rape machine.

As for UAVs, remove all weapons off them and have them purely as information sources. Also would be helpful if they were available earlier in the game perhaps. Same with paratroopers.

[Freeborne]

If Imperator and I disagree with you, that has to tell you something's wrong

• Removing MG36 magazines seems a bad move. BLUFOR get more ammo capacity, and OPFOR get the FAL (1 shot kills, even to the toes). I think most players would still pick a FAL and with good reason. Increase their price instead.
• Where is the evidence of this 'massive overhead on server performance' caused by concrete walls? Concrete walls are not under constant attack throughout a game, so the amount of time that damage modifier script is called is minimal. You can also remove the damage modifier script. They'll be weak as paper, but still stop that first sabot round.
• PMC are the most challenging/fun Resistance force to fight. Why would you remove them?
• OPFOR's UAV is ****. It's just a scout drone. BLUFOR's UAV has 8x hell-fires, and kind of useful if for some stupid reason OPFOR don't have Tunguska's up. The OPFOR UAV is slow and hard to fly though, so good luck strapping a .50 CAL to it.

Tunguska vs F35B.
This deserves it's own paragraph, because anyone who thinks these are comparable assets really knows nothing!
Firstly the price. $9800 vs $80,000, or revised is still $12,000 vs $50,000.
Tunguska:
Tunguska has 8 missiles. High velocity, insta-kill, and it has a great radar.
You can man it effectively with AI.
You can keep the engines off, and make it VERY hard for enemy units to target you (can even fire with engines still off)
Can detect F35B's from long range if AAR is built.
It can serve multiple roles (kill swathes of infantry, blow up factories, take out light vehicles and even MBT's)

F35B:
Costs 4x-9x as much.
Has half the ammo.
Weaker, slower missiles.
Missiles and targeting have less range.
CANNOT defend itself against the Tunguska!
Requires human pilot (usually 'wasting' one of the best players on a team)
Flying at high speed, with red and grey blips everywhere, has 0 chance of spotting a Tunguska until it's fired upon.

P.S: The F35B doesn't drop a single flare, so I dropped 4 salvos (chafes).

[MarkusNemesis]

If Imperator and I disagree with you, that has to tell you something's wrong

• Removing MG36 magazines seems a bad move. BLUFOR get more ammo capacity, and OPFOR get the FAL (1 shot kills, even to the toes). I think most players would still pick a FAL and with good reason. Increase their price instead.
• Where is the evidence of this 'massive overhead on server performance' caused by concrete walls? Concrete walls are not under constant attack throughout a game, so the amount of time that damage modifier script is called is minimal. You can also remove the damage modifier script. They'll be weak as paper, but still stop that first sabot round.
• PMC are the most challenging/fun Resistance force to fight. Why would you remove them?
• OPFOR's UAV is ****. It's just a scout drone. BLUFOR's UAV has 8x hell-fires, and kind of useful if for some stupid reason OPFOR don't have Tunguska's up. The OPFOR UAV is slow and hard to fly though, so good luck strapping a .50 CAL to it.

Tunguska vs F35B.
This deserves it's own paragraph, because anyone who thinks these are comparable assets really knows nothing!
Firstly the price. $9800 vs $80,000, or revised is still $12,000 vs $50,000.
Tunguska:
Tunguska has 8 missiles. High velocity, insta-kill, and it has a great radar.
You can man it effectively with AI.
You can keep the engines off, and make it VERY hard for enemy units to target you (can even fire with engines still off)
Can detect F35B's from long range if AAR is built.
It can serve multiple roles (kill swathes of infantry, blow up factories, take out light vehicles and even MBT's)

F35B:
Costs 4x-9x as much.
Has half the ammo.
Weaker, slower missiles.
Missiles and targeting have less range.
CANNOT defend itself against the Tunguska!
Requires human pilot (usually 'wasting' one of the best players on a team)
Flying at high speed, with red and grey blips everywhere, has 0 chance of spotting a Tunguska until it's fired upon.

P.S: The F35B doesn't drop a single flare, so I dropped 4 salvos (chafes).

BLUFOR have the Mk.17 as well, which is pretty comparable to the FAL, but I, and a lot of others choose the Mk.16 with MG36 mags over any other weapon. Removing the MG36 mags brings more deciding factors to weapon selection than just "100 rounds vs 20? I'll go 100".

The BLUFOR UAV, like I said, will not have any weapons apart from the .50 cal.

Spamming anything causes an overhead on the server, and it seems everyone but you like them. We're not saying "Herp derp, it's too hard", we're saying "Why the **** are there 1000 concrete walls here".

PMC has NOT been REMOVED. It's just no longer the default resistance faction for cherno, it's the Guerillas. If you want PMC, you can set it to be PMC in the parameters.

The F35 currently is working as intended. You can stay out of Tung range and still engage air, and if they're below the 5 KM missile range, use Linebackers. If OPFOR pilots are good enough, they can stay in the goldilocks zone where the F35 can't engage due to Tungs and the M6s can't engage due to RADAR limits.

If I make the F35 50k, as soon as BLU get an AF, everyone's going to be in ASFs and the ground will get swamped by OPFOR.

I want to see a show of hands, R73/Sidewinders to replace Tungs, or to keep the Tungs but make the M1-Tung more expensive? (10-15k)

We're getting into the uncanny valley here folks. Air isn't a simple fix.

[Goshawk]

Leave weapons off the UAVS completely. Its ridiculous that youve gone and put weapons on the AN2 as is. Might as well strap the GAU8 to motorbikes.

Personally i hate fighting PMC resistance as it just looks retarded fighting military contractors, especially as Blufor. Immersion breakimg for sure.

Id pick Mk17 over a 5.56 weapon, especially the RCO version which is lethal!

As for concrete walls, the only reason i dont like them is due to no collide.