Warfare B.E 2.071 Re-Balanced for GON

[Freeborne]

Read the Work-In-Progress documentation here:
https://docs.google.com/a/freeborne.net ... evMSE/edit

Download latest beta here
(last updated 02/04)


Updated change-list (last updated 02/04/2012):
Change log:

Income & Rewards:

1. Summary of all changes added to diary log (Press M and click Notes).
2. Removed all playable infantry units from buy lists and AI spawn scripts.
3. $500 bounty for killing all playable units (players and AI team leaders).
4. $3000 bounty for destroying enemy factories.
5. Bounty reward increased from 25% to 35%
6. Salvage reward increased from 30% to 35%
7. Bounty for capturing camps increased from $100 to $500
8. Bounty for capturing towns increased from $400 to $1200
9. Bounty for ‘assisting’ in capturing towns increased from $175 to $600
10. Bounty for capturing ‘mission’ towns increased from $800 to $2000
11. Bounty for ‘assisting’ in capturing ‘mission towns increased from $350 to $1500.
12. Default income set to half of total supply, per minute.
13. Commander bounty for town captured increased from (30*StartingSupply) to (80*StartingSupply).
14. Commander Tax maximum set to 25% (if enabled).

Price changes:

1. Ambulance price changes (Vodnik/HMMWV/M113/Stryker = $1500/$1400/$1400/$1600).
2. Most tank prices increased, APC’s/IFV’s decreased.
3. HQ repair cost decreased from 25,000SP to 20,000SP.
4. Repair trucks increased to $1000.
5. Vehicle Ammo crates increased to $50,000.
6. Removed ammo trucks and refuel trucks. Decreased costs for refuel and rearm.
7. ‘No respawn penalty’ parameter option removed.

Unit Balancing:

1. Tab-locking missiles removed from aircraft with a few exceptions (ATGM for KA52 and A10, AA for KA52 Black, Su34, F35B)
2. AA manpad’s increased to $10,000 (10x R72/Sidewinders).
3. All AT prices increased (slight increase to LAT, moderate for AT, large for HAT).
4. Removed Tunguska missiles from Tunguska
5. Removed Sidewinders/Stingers from Linebacker.
6. Removed Stingers from Avenger.
7. Increased prices for all AA weapons and units.

Accessibility:

1. Added specialist skill descriptions for each slot in Lobby (Lockpick, Repair, etc).
2. Removed unnecessary parameter options (100 AI unit size, etc).
3. Removed duplicate unit lists and set default factory unit filter to “All”.
4. High Command parameter option removed.
5. Building friendly fire disabled.

Misc:

1. Concrete wall hit points reduced by 400%. (1x Metis, 2x MAAWS HEAT, 5x RPG-7VL).
2. Moved around vehicles in factory lists and required Upgrade Level (see charts below).
3. All players start with GPS.

Goals:

• Reduce effectiveness of assets that are currently ‘too powerful’ (eg: Kamovs)
• Balance assets on both sides.
• Reduce effectiveness, or remove assets that are not challenging to use and provide easy kills (eg: artillery).
• Reduce clutter of unnecessary units (eg: desert units on Cherno)
• Encourage harder fought battles that require more than one powerful ‘game ending’ asset.

Currently my plans are:

• Remove Artillery (GRADs, MLRS, M119, D30) but mortars will stay.
• Remove M6 Linebackers & Tunguska's.
• Remove AA manpads from Repair Truck build menu (only HQ can build them).
• (Temporary) Remove Fuel & Ammo trucks .
• Remove majority of ATGM's from aircraft and only have a few AA to ensure close dog-fights.
• Add/Remove/Change vehicles from buy menu to (hopefully) balance both teams.
• Obviously change prices, so some things (air) are more affordable because they are less effective.

Parameter changes are also planned. Some options will be removed to force particular settings, which will not suit all players, but is intended to appeal to "prime-time" gaming on GON when lots of regulars are on.

Respawn Penalty = Full Price on Mobile Respawn
Thermals = Disabled
Camp Respawns, Fast Travel, High Command etc = Disabled

Most changes I hope to use with the Unit Balancing condition, so the mission can be played with balancing on or off. Gear penalty I think is mandatory as you cannot accurately calculate the value of an asset (such as a tank) if the price of AT weapons vary greatly from $0 to $2000.

Vehicles and Aircraft will not be as vulnerable, but also not as powerful. Therefore they can be cheaper, bringing them back into the game but not dominating it. Air dominance will now mean a team "owns the skies" but won't "own the ground" as well. All known "exploits" will attempt to be removed (free ammo, free refueling, artillery spam, gear farming).







Thinking both teams should start with M113 Ambo's too. Harder to ruin by hitting a tree, and slower moving to prevent early base hunting.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?

[Goshawk]

While Im all for balancing there is such a thing as overkill. At the rate we are going we're just going to have a mirrored match where both teams might as well have the same stuff.

About the only thing i agree with in there is the gear penalty component. I honestly think you are using a sledgehammer when you should be using a scalpel. Too many changes are going to make it extremely difficult to determine whether or not a particular change is effective.

As for clutter, there is a reason the mission has unit filters in the buy menu.

[Freeborne]

The only mirrored units are:
M113 (HF0)
M113 Ambulance (HF0)
BMP2 (HF1)

Why is that overkill?

I admit I'm hesitant to trust any OPFOR player to edit Warfare (for example, Sky seemed unwilling to remove M113 Ambo's for OPFOR), so this is why I plan to make (and document) the changes myself. There is simply not enough transparency in the past with the way Warfare has been edited here by certain individuals (without the mission name even being changed).


I'm not claiming to be doing anything new, and will incorporate a lot of ideas from other changes made in the past (by Wraith, Xerxes, etc) and won't be titling this "Freeborne's Warfare" or anything silly like that either (mostly coz I know no-one would then play it)

P.S: Many vehicles are still being added to the lists, I just concentrated with 'attack vehicles' for now, so the list seems bare as many transport vehicles are missing, etc

[Baskerville]

Most of this has been done free.

Just be mindful that removing certain parameters can have a negative affect and cause problems.

[Goshawk]

Im failing to see why the M113 needs to be mirrored. Its pretty damn simple in fact:

LF2: Vodnik and HMV ambos

HF0: M113 and Stryker ambos
Why people think this should be any differnt is beyond me but i may put it down to a slight case of brain damage. In fact this is the way it used to be before people started messing around with things.

See my previous post in the other thread regarding the balancing of the Kamov which can be done by removing the x4 R73 which should NEVER have been on the chopper in the first place (wraith you idiot) and lower the cost and tech requirement of the F35 to be the airbourne counter to the Kamov. Retain Tung missiles on Linebacker to enable some measely token SAM defence. OpFor players moaning about not having AA on the Kamov can stfu up and learn to use Tung as support or save their pennies for a jet.

Arty can be balanced by simply making ammo trucks expensive and require LF3 while arty itself needs the associated arty upgrade which in itself requires HF1. The MLRS/Grad systems can be made expensive (like $12k or so) while howitzers are immobile and relatively expensive already while not really reaping that much of a reward in terms of bounty given the initial outlay a player lays down when purchasing the unit.



I’d also like to see the ability to re-arm/repair/refuel removed from town depots and the repair trucks (via warfare menu). This would help introduce some more logistics into the game and stop players from just raping AI in towns, rearming and then repeating at the next town.

[Freeborne]

Why is it you seem upset about both teams having M113's?

Currently in default 2.071:
OPFOR - M113 Ambulance at LF1
BLUFOR - Stryker MEV at HF1

So by default it's pretty crazy, but if I put Stryker MEV at HF0 it gives BLUFOR strong incentive to rush HF as the Stryker allows for rapid expansion (and base hunting). Both having M113's just seems like the obvious simple solution.

Yes, Kamov is one the list of aircraft to have much of it's armaments removed/replaced. I don't plan for any aircraft to have more than 2x AA missiles.


I don't believe Pricing is the best solution to fixing Warfare. Every price change just brings more complications. You suggest increasing the price of Ammo Trucks. Should they cost $10,000 because you can freely rearm 2x AH64's from one which would normally cost $8000 each (approx)? You also suggest removing Town Depot resupply, so if I want to rearm some GPK's I have to buy a $10,000 Ammo Truck and risk it out in the open battlefield? Ammo Trucks would only ever be kept safe at base and used for aircraft and expensive assets. Pricing is not the solution.

So that's why I have the removal of Ammo and Fuel trucks marked as temporary. If I can work out how, I'll remove the 'auto-resupply' ability of these vehicles, and make it so you can use "WF Menu > Support > Rearm" only if a Ammo Truck is nearby, and similar with Fuel Trucks and Repair Trucks. So you still have to buy all 3 some times but it will still cost you to resupply vehicles based on how much the vehicle costs. So there only "one stop shop" for resupply will be Supply Depots.

[Dinga]

Its not so much the price/availability of certain aircraft that's the problem, rather that max altitude is too high and the flare thingees make AA completely ineffective.

Then dont get me started on target lock ons from 5k away (a problem with some aircraft, as well as in Takistan with certain vehicles).

[Sky Monster]

the flare thingees make AA completely ineffective.

Do you ever fly in warfare matches? Tunguskas and Sidewinders can be quite bullsh*t on occasion.

[Freeborne]

Tunguska's are another good example of an overpowered asset.

Problem with Tunguska's, is they are not just effective against AH64's and AV8B's when used well, but also insanely effective against all transport aircraft and low flying craft.

Therefore as long as OPFOR have one, there will never be dog-fights in the centre of the map, transport choppers flying through valleys, or jets doing low altitude strafing runs. Call me crazy, but I think those are fun parts of flying aircraft instead of flying 1000m in the air and just tab-locking everything.

Tunguska's and Linebackers might actually stay in the game though. It might be easier to just remove the AA with UnitBalancing script.

Also, I'm not sure how effective the Missile Range parameter is, and if it can be exploited, but does 3KM sound like a better maximum? (baring in mind it will out-range all ground-based AA that won't have missiles)

[Freeborne]

Have made a few radical proposals.

Almost all AA is being removed from the game (AI troops, Town Resistance, Static Defenses, etc).

• Jets will retain up to 2x AA missiles.
• ATGM's will be reduced on some aircraft so they will be used to eliminate high-value targets (players in tanks or Shilkas)
• Countermeasures will be reduced to reflect massive reduction in available AA.
• Aircraft prices will be reduced to reflect all this.

I expect these changes to have the following effect:

• Jets kept in reserve around airports, and called out to provide CAS, or hunt down choppers/transports that appear on AAR.
• Choppers will not 'stand off' and just tab-lock targets from 5KM, then return to rearm as missile ranges will be reduced, and they will have less ATGM's. Once pilots realize most threats have been removed they will fly lower to provide CAS, and use cannons/rockets to mop up light vehicles and infantry.
• Jets will fly high altitude (1000m) to avoid all ground based AA, and gunship cannons. They won't waste their missiles on ground targets unless a high-value target is identified.
• Choppers will fly at lower altitudes, to use rockets, cannons and ATGM's to provide CAS. A10's fall into this category but with their speed they will likely be kept more in reserve closer to the base.

Modern day warfare, played out like WW2.

[Goshawk]

Tunguska's are another good example of an overpowered asset.

The problem with Tunguska's, is they are not just effective against AH64's and AV8B's when used well, but also insanely effective against all transport aircraft and low flying craft.

Therefore as long as OPFOR have one, there will never be dog-fights in the centre of the map, transport choppers flying through valleys, or jets doing low altitude strafing runs. Call me crazy, but I think those are fun parts of flying aircraft instead of flying 1000m in the air and just tab-locking everything.

Tungs are not over powered. They do exactly what they're meant to do, deny the airspace in their range to enemy air assets. The ONLY reason they seem over powered in BE Warfare is due to BluFor's lack of an equivalent ground based asset. This is actually pretty darn accurate as the US have never been at the forefront of mobile AA technology.

Instead the US achieves air superiourity through the use of it's own air assets, something that is no longer mirrored in BE Warfare despite this being the case in earlier versions. The dogfights you mentioned occured quite frequently especially between F-35's and SU-34's as the former stood an extremely good chance of gunning down the latter if you got close enough. The Su-34 cannot turn and burn at the same time.

So, as I have mentioned for the third time now, the proper counter to OpFor air should be BluFor air in the form of the F-35B. The counter to the F-35B would either be a good OpFor pilot or the area denial provided by SPAAG and Tunguskas.


As for your second post:

Don't forget to remove the cannons off the jets mate, they kill bases in one run.

Jets kept in reserve around airports, and called out to provide CAS, or hunt down choppers/transports that appear on AAR

When was the last time you saw someone ask for and receive CAS properly? Never.

Choppers will not 'stand off' and just tab-lock targets from 5KM, then return to rearm as missile ranges will be reduced, and they will have less ATGM's. Once pilots realize most threats have been removed they will fly lower to provide CAS, and use cannons/rockets to mop up light vehicles and infantry.

Stand off is exactly how almost all of the choppers in the game are meant to be used. Apaches gun/rocket running areas is only ever done in circumstances where the risk to the aircraft is low and even then cheeky players will still be popping RPG's/MAAWs up at you as you fly past.

Jets will fly high altitude (1000m) to avoid all ground based AA, and gunship cannons. They won't waste their missiles on ground targets unless a high-value target is identified.

This is already what smart pilots do at the moment. Firing off your AA and AG willy nilly will result in you being dead faster than if you reserve your ammo properly. I almost never use my AG on towns unless there's not much going on.

Choppers will fly at lower altitudes, to use rockets, cannons and ATGM's to provide CAS. A10's fall into this category but with their speed they will likely be kept more in reserve closer to the base.

The range on most chopper cannons is in excess of 1500m so why the hell would they fly low? Do you have any idea how powerful two humans are in an AH-64 with it's thermals and cannon? They can rape a town quicker than you in your M1A1.

As for the strike aircraft such as the L-39 / Su-25 / A-10 even at 20k I and most other players would still seriously consider not buying one due to the ludicrous vulnerability to any kind of AA or MANPADS.

Modern day warfare, played out like WW2.

This is a retarded statement. There are many reasons modern day warfare does not occur anything like WW2.

As for BluFor rushing for HF...that would be a suicidal move by a commander on a lower supply setting (as per default) as the cost for a HF is rather significant (3k+ from memory) and in the mean time half his players would quit from having to walk everywhere or from not being able to afford vehicles.

[Freeborne]

Please read the W-I-P Google doc before forming an opinion. Review it carefully...

The counter to OPFOR air for BLUFOR WILL be the F35B. It has 2x AA, is fast and agile, and will not have to worry about being decimated by Tunguska's or KA52's AA missiles like it currently is.

The counter to BLUFOR air for OPFOR, will be the SU34, L39, Su25, and Su39.

When was the last time you saw someone ask for and receive CAS properly? Never.

Exactly. Instead of arguing the point, stop and think WHY no-one provides CAS! Simply because it's too risky! Now it won't be so risky, so Air can provide limited CAS before re-arming, without having a 80% chance of being shot down.

This is already what smart pilots do at the moment. Firing off your AA and AG willy nilly will result in you being dead faster than if you reserve your ammo properly.

No, pilots often "just" use their AG missiles, because they are plentiful, and easily rearmed. This means in most cases, pilots rarely expend their cannon ammo. By reducing the AG armaments, the cannons and FAAR will be the pilots primary weapons, forcing closer engagements. Missile range is also greatly reduced so choppers will need to 'push' forward if they wish to engage enemy vehicles. If you think you can be super effective decimating a team using a cannon at 1000m altitude, then I welcome you to try this by all means. I'd much rather this than having 12 auto-locking missiles fired at my team every 60 seconds from 5KM+.

Lastly, at $20K the L39 and Su25's would be a bargain, as their only real threats are base-built manpads! Linebackers with Tung missiles are gone! AA manpads built from Repair Trucks are gone! AH1Z with AA missiles have been removed! Majority of AI carrying AA launchers are gone! The only significant threat to these jets would be other jets!

[Sky Monster]

Looks like you are turning ArmA into Battlefield.

I'll give it a play when you finish it.

I'd also like to give PBwarfare another shot. Just needs more AI to fight. Roaming Resistance would be fun too.

[Goshawk]

Looks like you are turning ArmA into Battlefield.

Heh, i could have just said this.

Oh and of yhe opfor air that you mentioned as a counter to blufor, only the Su-33 would stand any semblance of a chance as the rest do not have MWS.

[Freeborne]

Why do they need MWS? Their primary threat is the F35B which only has 2x AA missiles, or the AH1Z and AH64's with their turret cannons.

If the F35B fires off those 2x AA at other threats, then the BLUFOR can send out the L39, Su25, Su34 and Su39 to engage it, or even the Mi24-D/P/V (whichever one has rotating turret).

Not sure whether the Su25 and Su39 should have AA though. Maybe just the Su34 so it's more on par with F35B?

Does the Countermeasures module not give those jets MWS anyway?


Also addded bounty for killing factories. Not sure how to make it specific for the factory you killed so reward is the same regardless of factory type ($3000).

Still, if you kill a SP, B, LF and HF, that's $12,000.