Sitrep: Lessons in Sexism From the World of Shooters

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As an adolescent boy trapped in the body of a young man, Toby McCasker probably isn't the most qualified among us to comment on the issue of sexism raging through the world of video games lately. But hey, since he's here...

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[caitsith01]

This comments thread should be fun.

Personally, I disagree with you. Strongly. For many reasons, mostly relating to a rather pre-1960s view of men and women in your article.

I'll throw one reason forward, though. You ignore the fact that, in many cases, female characters in games are put forward as objects, while male characters in games are put forward as actors. As you note, the unrealistically buff muscle man is always a man of action, able to control situations. Whereas the unrealistically busty/naked female character is almost always a prize, a seductress, in some way there to hint at being a sexual object to be used or claimed or conquered by the player's character. You don't find the huge gorilla-dudes in Gears of War sexily removing items of clothing or rubbing themselves or making inviting comments.

I am always embarassed by games which sexualise women in such an infantile way. It sorta makes me ashamed to be associated with a group (which I picture as almost exclusively pimply teenage boys, with a few adult V8 fans mixed in) which finds that titillating and exciting. Surely a female character like Malik in Deus Ex 3 is more interesting/sophisticated than some feeble rendition of a stripper designed to seem 'available'.

It's also embarassing for the industry in a historic context. Women used to be second class citizens in almost every respect, up until very recently. They are still routinely discriminated against in some contexts (e.g. pay). Having fought to overcome that as a society, I don't really get how it's fun or enjoyable to routinely restore women to the position of decorative items to be used or "ogled" by men.

Anyway.

PS - do you really "ogle" attractive women?

[caitsith01]

Actually, I really have to take issue with this:

Straight and bisexual males are often visual beings and will ogle attractive females. There is no pussyfooting around this fact, and furthermore there is nothing wrong with it. If it didn’t happen, humanity would stop happening.

I don't know what you've heard, but the reproductive act is far less likely to take place if you "ogle attractive females".

[Toby McCasker]

Actually, I really have to take issue with this:

Straight and bisexual males are often visual beings and will ogle attractive females. There is no pussyfooting around this fact, and furthermore there is nothing wrong with it. If it didn’t happen, humanity would stop happening.

I don't know what you've heard, but the reproductive act is far less likely to take place if you "ogle attractive females".

Please don't make me explain the broader context of this. You are doing that thing. What thing? That thing where you read what you want to read into something. Don't do that. Angry conversational circles will begin, and nothing constructive will be achieved, and I'll receive a warning for photoshopping your head onto a Mardi Gras man.

[Matty]

and I'll receive a warning for photoshopping your head onto a Mardi Gras man.

Heh.

Mods need to keep a close eye on this thread I think.

[Spooler]

I understand my post is poorly written I apologise please try to bear with me tho.

a million and one ladies aren’t doing the exact same thing over Alexander Skarsgård’s rock-hard abba-dabbas?

Eh, Just because everyone is doing it it does not make it the right thing to do I really could careless about someones thoughts or what they base attraction on objectional or otherwise.

But really, I hope we evolve out of sexualisation as a species there's just so much more important and beautiful than anyone's behind.

It's also embarassing for the industry in a historic context. Women used to be second class citizens in almost every respect, up until very recently.

It's not just the gaming industry women being treated as equals is only very recent history before the 40's the concept of women's rights barely existed and certainly not to the extent it now does.

Women's rights are no laughing matter under any circumstance theirs still far too many places in the world where they simply do not exist, however I think their is a difference between discrimination and wanting to look at pretty things women should be protected by the same rights men are but should NOT be placed on a pedestal, if someone wants gratuitous sexuality in their game eh it's not going to hurt anyone.

P.S Toby try not to let that power go to your head

[caitsith01]

Please don't make me explain the broader context of this. You are doing that thing. What thing? That thing where you read what you want to read into something. Don't do that. Angry conversational circles will begin, and nothing constructive will be achieved, and I'll receive a warning for photoshopping your head onto a Mardi Gras man.

It's a serious point though - people don't usually reproduce because a guy "ogles" or otherwise objectifies a woman - they reproduce because two people fancy each other and do the nasty. Which happens for many reasons, but usually not because one has "stared in a lecherous manner" at the other.

Which sort of goes to the heart of it. The assumption that "boys will be boys and what boys like to look at is shady ladies with big knockers" is exactly what, IMHO, is wrong with the mentality of the gaming industry when it comes to women. Men and women are both sophisticated and complex entities who can be attractive and attracted by a range of different things.

Edit: I get what you're saying. Men are attracted to women, why pretend otherwise? All I'm saying is that in the context of games, there is no need to consistently present a two dimensional, cartoonish version of "sexy women" based on the preferences of 13 year olds.

[caitsith01]

It's not just the gaming industry women being treated as equals is only very recent history before the 40's the concept of women's rights barely existed and certainly not to the extent it now does.

Yup, sorry, I didn't mean women have been second class citizens in the industry, I mean in the whole world. Hence why the industry needs to grow up and get over its infantile view of women.

It wouldn't be cool to typically portray black characters as slaves, would it? Or, say, as servants, hinting at past inequality. This isn't quite as extreme, but portraying women almost exclusively as passive sexual objects has overtones of something like that to me.

There are, of course, many exceptions, such as Beyond Good and Evil. But for every one of those, there 20 "Naked Beach Volleyball Party 12"s.

[Toby McCasker]

It's a serious point though - people don't usually reproduce because a guy "ogles" or otherwise objectifies a woman - they reproduce because two people fancy each other and do the nasty. Which happens for many reasons, but usually not because one has "stared in a lecherous manner" at the other.

Which sort of goes to the heart of it. The assumption that "boys will be boys and what boys like to look at is shady ladies with big knockers" is exactly what, IMHO, is wrong with the mentality of the gaming industry when it comes to women. Men and women are both sophisticated and complex entities who can be attractive and attracted by a range of different things.

Maybe my enthusiasm for the word "ogle" is just too enthusiastic (I always hear that cute bit in Dragon Age where Leliana goes, "Was he really? Was he really ogling me?" whenever I see it) but what I was getting at was: Show me a member of either sex who's never cast an appreciative eye over a gent/lady they find attractive, and I will produce for you an insatiable liar.

[caitsith01]

Maybe my enthusiasm for the word "ogle" is just too enthusiastic (I always hear that cute bit in Dragon Age where Leliana goes, "Was he really? Was he really ogling me?" whenever I see it) but what I was getting at was: Show me a member of either sex who's never cast an appreciative eye over a gent/lady they find attractive, and I will produce for you an insatiable liar.

Sure, I agree. I guess I picked up on that word because to me it sort of sums up the issue - are women to be checked out as decoration/recreational equipment, or are they equally dynamic, complex characters to men? Does the latter make them somehow less attractive?

[Spooler]

Which sort of goes to the heart of it. The assumption that "boys will be boys and what boys like to look at is shady ladies with big knockers" is exactly what, IMHO, is wrong with the mentality of the gaming industry when it comes to women

It's not just the games industry and honestly when I was 13-16 I thought breasts were amazing and a game could probably have sold me on **** tho of-course my parents took an interest in my life and would take the time to understand games so that probably would have been unlikely.

Movies do the same and don't get me started on Anime, The problem with the games industry is it still thinks (in parts) that teenage boys are the high % of gamers which is just not correct anymore.

Yup, sorry, I didn't mean women have been second class citizens in the industry, I mean in the whole world.

The whole world is alot of an exaggeration women have equal rights in most of Europe, America and Australia you can argue that point but they do from a legal stance some might say the scales of justice are unfairly tipped in female favour in some instances.

Some people in the free/first world are sexist but that does not mean those societies are.

It wouldn't be cool to typically portray black characters as slaves, would it?

Depends on the context a game set in early american history before Lincoln it would be historically accurate not racist. Slavery is a part of our history like it or not their's a ton of reasons to have black people portrayed in thoes roles that have artistic/historic

complex characters to men?

Look at the games women are portrayed that way duke nukem for example, the men have no depth either

[Spooler]

Show me a member of either sex who's never cast an appreciative eye over a gent/lady they find attractive, and I will produce for you an insatiable liar.

Historically ? Plenty of eunuchs

[Toby McCasker]

Maybe my enthusiasm for the word "ogle" is just too enthusiastic (I always hear that cute bit in Dragon Age where Leliana goes, "Was he really? Was he really ogling me?" whenever I see it) but what I was getting at was: Show me a member of either sex who's never cast an appreciative eye over a gent/lady they find attractive, and I will produce for you an insatiable liar.

Sure, I agree. I guess I picked up on that word because to me it sort of sums up the issue - are women to be checked out as decoration/recreational equipment, or are they equally dynamic, complex characters to men? Does the latter make them somehow less attractive?

When you think about that last question yourself, what's your answer?

[Toby McCasker]

Show me a member of either sex who's never cast an appreciative eye over a gent/lady they find attractive, and I will produce for you an insatiable liar.

Historically ? Plenty of eunuchs

Don't get him started...

[caitsith01]

Movies do the same and don't get me started on Anime, The problem with the games industry is it still thinks (in parts) that teenage boys are the high % of gamers which is just not correct anymore.

Yes, anime is particularly alarming insofar as it seems to extend to being an "ok" form of pedophilia a lot of the time. I better run away now, I think.

The whole world is alot of an exaggeration women have equal rights in most of Europe, America and Australia you can argue that point but they do from a legal stance some might say the scales of justice are unfairly tipped in female favour in some instances.

I was speaking of the historical context, not contemporary society. Although I don't agree that women have equal rights in the places you list - there are still areas of inequality, especially in terms of the workplace and positions of power and influence (corporate, political, legal).