Sitrep: Lessons in Sexism From the World of Shooters

[Spooler]

@ Toby
Ahahahaha Well played good sir, well played

[caitsith01]

Does the latter make them somehow less attractive?

When you think about that last question yourself, what's your answer?

Not in the slightest. I actually find intelligent, complex women more interesting in every sense. And that doesn't mean they can't also be physically attractive, although in my experience the interesting ones don't usually get around in their underwear in public.

[Spooler]

Not in the slightest. I actually find intelligent, complex women more interesting in every sense. And that doesn't mean they can't also be physically attractive, although in my experience the interesting ones don't usually get around in their underwear in public.

I don't think you have to be intelligent to be complex, tho I guess that depends on how you define intelligence

[Toby McCasker]

Not in the slightest. I actually find intelligent, complex women more interesting in every sense. And that doesn't mean they can't also be physically attractive, although in my experience the interesting ones don't usually get around in their underwear in public.

I don't think you have to be intelligent to be complex, tho I guess that depends on how you define intelligence

I actually think errorism is one of the most humanising and subsequently intriguing qualities a character can have. If Juliet in Lollipop Chainsaw stopped what she was doing at one point and went, "Damn it. You know what? Suda made me wear this ****. I'm cold as," and then reappeared a moment later in a cool three-piece Janelle Monáe suit, then I think Suda's rep might actually be deserved.

[Spooler]

in a cool three-piece Janelle Monáe suit, then I think Suda's rep might actually be deserved.

And all of a suddenly the game would become a terrifying statement in fashion gone horribly wrong

Side note to any mods policing this thread any chance of being able to swear guessing the swear word game is fun and all but ...

[Rodimus86]

Im actually Gary Busey.

Hidden: show

[Bek]

Side note to any mods policing this thread any chance of being able to swear guessing the swear word game is fun and all but ...

You can disable the swear filter in the user control panel.

[Vencha88]

So to preface this and maybe avoid me arguing the same stuff over and over (And not getting in trouble from Mellie ) I want to explain what I mean when I talk about feminism.

When I talk feminism I mean sex-positive feminism. The brand where men women, straight, gay, disabled, queer, transexual, asexual, fat, skinny, buff, lean and all the folks in between are considered equal and completely entitled to do whatever it is that gets them off, as long as it's consensual and safe. And that to tell any of those people that their body in some way is bad or predisposes them to rape/be a ****/be ugly is horrible and untrue. Yes there are radical feminists who hate men, transexuals and porn starts but that's not me.

In response to this article, I think it's rad that GON are putting up more content like this. I'm sure everyone knows I tend to go on about this, so me liking it isn't really a surprise. Never the less in my opinion the more this is talked about, the more will get solved.

I think what the article has missed is the different message the images (Buff man, busty girl) send. When you play as super strong-crazy-stamina BF3 guy you're not playing as a female sex fantasy as seen through the eyes of a man, you're playing as a male powerfantasy as seen by a man. But if you hop on to one of the ladies in Dead or Alive, you're then just playing as a male sex fantasy, through the eyes of a man.

What this means is that the images and messages sent by the game industry are very different. For men it's a medium of being anyone you want, having the power to (sometimes literally) shape worlds. For women the message is much different, it's one that says "You're here to be attractive and sexy to men first, and powerful second."

Most people react with "But it's empowering!", but unfortunately it's not and alot of that comes from the way this characters are designed and viewed.

If you take Isabella from the Dragon Age series, you get a woman who is obviously and overtly sexual. She tries to **** everyone the she likes and doesn't even bother with pants. Isabella is empowered. She makes these decisions on her own and does it for her enjoyment. The character is never treated like some piece of meat there to be ogled and then ignored. (Forget the German DA2 marketing campaign.)

But if you take say Kasumi from Dead or Alive you get a character that has a pretty flimsy story, which is fine, but has no real justification for what she wears or how she acts. She's simply there to be attractive to men, not to be a badass fighter first and sexy second.

Much of the imagery we run into in games stumbles on this. They add women, attempt to get them in but just can't help by try make them attractive and an object or prize.

World of Warcraft's older armour:

Bonus points for the difference between the male and female models being another example.


Or the stupid nightie from the "dream" sequences from Velvet Assassin:


What's happening here isn't empowerment but a pigeon holing of all the majority of female characters, that stops them being people who are informed by their gender and turns them into dolls whose only point is to be sexy.

When you take the view that these images are different in message you can see why even though the fact that your avatar my be sexy to women, you're not really getting the same deal.

So by all means, enjoy sexy women and being a tough man, but stop and think whether or not someone who isn't you can do the same. Can they be a tough girl and enjoy sexy men just the same? Can they pilot a mech, be a fronline soldier, save Gotham City or finally kiss a wookiee just as easy as you, or are they being sent to the sidelines and only allowed to watch you do it.

[Toby McCasker]

Thanks, Vencha. That was great food for thought, and exactly the kind of level-headed commentary that is sadly lacking on this topic. I agree with you very much a lot. Isabela is a very good example of what you're getting at: Yes, she is a massive ho-bag - but that is unapologetically who she is, and what's more, other characters in-game judge her for it quite harshly at times (Aveline). That's a reality we all see, all the time. Surface-ironically, she's a great example for games in this respect.

[Bogus]

Interesting article and I enjoyed the read.
I agree with much of what you said and don't take exception to any of it.

Can't be arsed explaining.

[amara]

I myself am working on a blog post about this very subject. I came here hoping to get another point of view and I was really disappointed by this being just another 'it is what it is'.

With the rape culture once again in the spot light and the few strong female characters/role models being destroyed lately (Uhura, Lara Craft etc), there are so many more things to this sexism subject than just 'hot chicks in hot armour for dudes to stare at'.

I play what is considered 'male dominated games' like RTS and FPS and have been a gamer for all my life. Even before pre-school I was playing computer games. I started playing online the moment my parents could get affordable dialup. Now I am approaching 30 and these last couple of years I have really wondered is it worth it?

All I have seen in my beloved gaming/geek culture is a huge down turn. The rape culture is growing, the few strong female characters are quickly disappearing and not being replaced and the emergence of 'Get back into the kitchen' mentality to the point where it is no longer funny (remember how long an arrow in a knee lasted? Yeah, well this one has been going a lot longer).

Is there a problem with sexism in gaming? I think the only way to answer that is to close your eyes and pretend to be a woman (or think about this closely if you are female) and ask yourself, Are there strong women characters/role models out there? Are there characters that make me proud for the female population? Why is she a strong woman? Is it because she is a great hero or because she was a victim of some terrible violence? Does the fact that she is a woman constantly an issue or does she face other issues that are related to being a person with her own morals, personality and opinions and not just because she is a woman and these are woman problems?

If you can come up with enough examples that you are satisfied, then sexism isn't an issue.

Sadly, I can not.

[Toby McCasker]

I myself am working on a blog post about this very subject. I came here hoping to get another point of view and I was really disappointed by this being just another 'it is what it is'.

With the rape culture once again in the spot light and the few strong female characters/role models being destroyed lately (Uhura, Lara Craft etc), there are so many more things to this sexism subject than just 'hot chicks in hot armour for dudes to stare at'.

I play what is considered 'male dominated games' like RTS and FPS and have been a gamer for all my life. Even before pre-school I was playing computer games. I started playing online the moment my parents could get affordable dialup. Now I am approaching 30 and these last couple of years I have really wondered is it worth it?

All I have seen in my beloved gaming/geek culture is a huge down turn. The rape culture is growing, the few strong female characters are quickly disappearing and not being replaced and the emergence of 'Get back into the kitchen' mentality to the point where it is no longer funny (remember how long an arrow in a knee lasted? Yeah, well this one has been going a lot longer).

Is there a problem with sexism in gaming? I think the only way to answer that is to close your eyes and pretend to be a woman (or think about this closely if you are female) and ask yourself, Are there strong women characters/role models out there? Are there characters that make me proud for the female population? Why is she a strong woman? Is it because she is a great hero or because she was a victim of some terrible violence? Does the fact that she is a woman constantly an issue or does she face other issues that are related to being a person with her own morals, personality and opinions and not just because she is a woman and these are woman problems?

If you can come up with enough examples that you are satisfied, then sexism isn't an issue.

Sadly, I can not.

I sincerely hope you never write that blog post. It's already been written a thousand times already.

[Bek]

If you can come up with enough examples that you are satisfied, then sexism isn't an issue.

Sadly, I can not.

I can think of a few examples of independent / strong female characters in games, although admittedly there are a LOT more examples of sexed-up chicks obviously designed for men by men. Is it wrong to have both? Hm. I don't think so. The contrast between Jeanette and Therese Voerman in Vtm:B was done very very well and fitted into the story / game excellently.

I sincerely hope you never write that blog post. It's already been written a thousand times already.

A bit harsh there Toby..

[Toby McCasker]

I sincerely hope you never write that blog post. It's already been written a thousand times already.

A bit harsh there Toby..

In retrospect that came away as kinda nasty. I apologise, amara. I only meant that there is a fair amount of vitriolic and often misdirected feminist rhetoric bouncing around out there already. It would be a shame to add to it when you are clearly in a good position, especially in respect to gaming, to tackle the topic more objectively.

[Rodimus86]

Bit rude, in another note i got a lift home in a limo tonight.