''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence'' in Games

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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby IanHead » 16 Jun 12, 12:34 pm

hifi-55 wrote:I sort of see where he is getting at, the reality is that killing-style games are almost considered height of game entertainment, and any game that doesn't involve violence or killing is almost seen as an "alternative" game. I work in an electronics store and when it comes to selling games to under 15s I always avoid the shooters, but the kids complain that non-shooting games are "no fun" or "not cool" which is a bit of a disturbing trend, especially since these kids shouldn't be playing these games - but that is a different argument altogether.

I cant really say that at any point I found killing anyone in Deus Ex "disturbing". The fact is that you don't really see the consequences of your actions in any game. Sure in games like Skyrim, you get heavily penalized for killing randoms but once you're out of jail or paid the fine there is no further repercussions. You don't see the characters widow crying over a fresh grave, or the kids on the street, growing up hating the world because someone killed their Dad.

I think that's what Deus Ex was trying to aspire to and probably would've if the resources had been available. I remember Warren saying in an interview, something like "I wanna, y'know, kill a kid's dog, y'know, and have him cry. Wow, that's gonna look great in print isn't it."
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby Insomnihack » 16 Jun 12, 12:47 pm

GuppyShark wrote:Dear Warren,

If you didn't want me to kill so many people in Deus Ex, maybe you shouldn't have been so stingy with the tranquiliser darts.

Sincerely,
JC Denton


Haha. So true. I tried to be stealthy and humane playing both Deus Ex games, but they make it far easier to be violent rather than stealth your way through a mission in Human Rev. In other words if you want to be at all "ethical" in Deus Ex, you REALLY have to work at it and there are still times where killing someone violently is the only choice.

Having said that, its going back a lot of years now, but I do seem to remember the first Deus Ex giving you a lot more choice of player morality. And given Warren had nothing to do with Human Revolution (I think?) perhaps he does have a point. To a degree anyway. Oh I don't fu$%ing know. I've confused myself now. All I know is I like fragging computer generated objects. Is that so wrong? :shock:
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby tacitus42 » 16 Jun 12, 2:38 pm

^^ I used the 'Q' button for stealth KO more than anything in Human Revolution, but in the first game I actually only killed people when I got the nanoblade. Before that it was simply avoiding people and using the electrocution rod.

But yeah western culture definitely seems to have a fear of sex in it's entertainment and a love of violence.
Look at GTA, you can kill hookers and grannies and take their money. Then kill 500 policemen who try to stop from doing more. And you are rewarded for this. Now I understand that in reality this is just a little bit of stupid fun and I take it for what is is and I enjoy it.
But the real issue is when someone found out that there were files in the game that allowed the player to actually have sex the game was banned.
Why was sex the thing that got the game banned and not violence?
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby Insomnihack » 16 Jun 12, 3:54 pm

tacitus42 wrote:Why was sex the thing that got the game banned and not violence?


Because many Americans are obsessed by sexual content in films, games and TV and its "influence on young minds". Particularly fundamentalist Christians on moral crusades. This is a country that is fine showing free to air television shows with people being regularly shot and bashed, but you still can't say any sort of profanity without it being bleeped, or show any nudity whatsoever on national TV. Many movies that go to air on the free channels are still censored for television, where as we stopped this practise years ago. Even a topless female or saying the word $hit is too offensive for the majority of stations. Contrast that to our FTA networks where pretty much anything goes after 8pm.

Of course in the states to watch good quality uncensored content you just get cable, but I think the situation still generally illustrates what the country as a whole finds acceptable as entertainment. Unless its a cuddly bedroom love scene, sex is just not on!

Edit: to update my censored swear word. The irony.
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby thefinn » 16 Jun 12, 7:16 pm

GuppyShark wrote:Dear Warren,

If you didn't want me to kill so many people in Deus Ex, maybe you shouldn't have been so stingy with the tranquiliser darts.

Sincerely,
JC Denton


So true.

Always with the sniper rifle bullets, never the darts. WHAT YOU WANT FROM ME ?!?
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby At0mican » 17 Jun 12, 1:24 am

Insomnihack wrote:Haha. So true. I tried to be stealthy and humane playing both Deus Ex games, but they make it far easier to be violent rather than stealth your way through a mission in Human Rev. In other words if you want to be at all "ethical" in Deus Ex, you REALLY have to work at it and there are still times where killing someone violently is the only choice.

I think the stealth option is easier in BOTH Deus Ex games to pull off than the violent option. Particularly in Human Rev - stealth takedowns are perfectly silent so you won't alert anyone around you, plus they give a mercy XP bonus as well as increase the likelyhood you'll be able to pull off a Ghost/Smooth Operator bonus XP combo (which make it easier to obtain Praxis points for stealth augs like Cloak quicker). Plus they kinda make it easier for silent takedowns anyway - you just tap Q as opposed to holding down Q for a second for kill takedowns, so stealth is quicker.

The Deus Ex games were never really about being shooters. Gunplay in the first was kinda clunky and in Human Rev it's hard to find enough ammo for automatic weapons anyway, at least compared to a regular shooter. You can shoot of course, but the entertainment value is in finding ways to achieve a goal without wholesale slaughter.

(Note: I didn't mention DX2: Invisible War because that game is just a rumour. It doesn't exist.)
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Re: ''It Has to Stop'': Warren Spector on ''Ultraviolence''

Unread postby coatsy22 » 17 Jun 12, 2:54 am

At0mican wrote:I think the stealth option is easier in BOTH Deus Ex games to pull off than the violent option. Particularly in Human Rev - stealth takedowns are perfectly silent so you won't alert anyone around you, plus they give a mercy XP bonus as well



Personally, I loved how you could trank everyone in human Rev for bonus XP, and then kill them while unconsious on the ground. who said u cant have cake and eat it too :D
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