Carmack: Raw Horsepower of PC's ''Hampered'' by Console Development

[hunterkiller]

Most of the people in this thread from what i feel is that we all dont want PC exclusive per se but that we either want a better port (in due part better coding on behalf of the DEVS) or that PC should pioneer the games and then be down sized for console and not vise versa.

In a sense i wish almost all games came out on all platforms and we were able to enjoy them no matter what platform we chose but thats the most frustrating thing is i chose a PC and chose to play a game that sounds and looks great and all because they deem the PC to be a small market and dont care they get lazy with the coding and just port a poor code and leave it unsupported upon its release.

I love the idea of a gaming OS and hopefully that will happen in the near future, it is said that MS are developing Windows 8 for gaming in mind but i dont think anyone is going to hold their breath about that.

As long as we have the indie developers pushing the envelope on PC gaming i think PC still have some fight left and will be there strong into the future and will give next gen consoles a run too.

[Syncourt]

I pointed out that development costs for games now have blown out because of the need for more detailed, varied graphics and sound. Games used to be made by one or two guys in a shed. Dev teams have hundreds of people working on games now. This is not because of a certain piece of console hardware, if anything PC tech is more advanced and users demand higher graphical fidelity. That costs money.
If developers don't get adequate returns on development of PC games, then they won't do it. I just stated that if the assets weren't being developed for multiple formats, companies would not get adequate returns for making a lot of games PC exclusive.

Interesting that PC development is meant to be more expensive/lack profitability, yet from what I've seen console games tend to charge a higher price. What's with that?

On a side note, I'd be happy to pay an extra $20 on top of the usual game fee for something on PC that shows extra development effort that's been put into it. The reason I paid full AU retail price for Starcraft 2 (balance efforts and and map editor capabilities) and will probably do the same for Guild Wars 2 (who has offered free support and additions to GW1 for years).

Put the effort into the game and people will usually pay extra for it.

[xanarax]

Console development can save money on testing and bug/quirk fixing as that can be the most expensive part of the software development cycle.

However to develop for a console you need to pay a license, I hear that M$ are reasonable and their dev kit is 2nd to none. Sony's license is quite expensive and their dev is difficult to use as is their hardware.

The more expensive console game is generally to cover the royalty Sony/M$ get when someone buys a game, as they get a cut of each game sold as well as the original developer license.

M$ don't charge a development license for Direct X 11, I believe this is to encourage development of 3D technology on the Windows platform over other platforms, OpenGL has various licenses but as far as I know is completely free and is running on most major platforms, Windows, Mac and Linux.

In terms of profitability and choice of development on a platform consoles are generally preferred because piracy is more difficult, development costs in some places can be reduced or simplified and they can get 1st party support from M$/Sony. Also they get brand recognition through what is implied by M$ or Sony licensing.

[finklesteinn]

Yay! Finally someone comes out and says what we all really knew all along, and what a person to do it. About time. we cant just keep floggin a dead horse.

[TRB]

I love the idea of a gaming OS and hopefully that will happen in the near future, it is said that MS are developing Windows 8 for gaming in mind but i dont think anyone is going to hold their breath about that.

Its true and I would bet money that the Xbox replacement coming in a few years will be running a version of win8.

in the same way that there are different versions of windows already for different devices, from media centre to portables.
I bet there will be a console version for their next console and I bet they will do so to make multi-platform development cheaper and faster.

now will that translate to better games for PC? I don't kow and thats the part I'm sceptical about.

[Mekon]

Carmack: Raw Horsepower of PC's ''Hampered'' by Console Development

I'm curious just where he expresses that opinion... yes, that's how CVG summarised the interview (which I haven't watched) but their article (and the GON summary of it) don't reflect that point of view.

Seems to me he says that the PC horsepower is hampered by development costs.

"But the timetables are so long, to do best of breed on here takes years to develop and engine and develop the content to go with it and you'll just run yourself out of business doing things that way.

"And those just end up being the cold hard economic truths," he concluded, "that you can spent $100 million working on a game now, and if you did that focused on the PC you'd be out of business."

And reiterates the point that the (presumably DirectX) API is holding back performance.

"It is a little bit of a shame that despite the raw horsepower, we are hampered by the arm's length API interface because it is, unhappily, true that we have the consoles here running at 60 frames per second and we can have these massively more powerful PC systems that struggle sometimes to hold the framerate because of unnecessary overheads.

"Where, if we were programming that hardware directly on the metal the same way we do the consoles, it would be significantly more powerful."

The end note was a positive one however, as Carmack said, "But there are moves afoot to be improving that and we are working closely with all the vendors to address that."

Where in that does he lay the blame on the consoles?

[BovineDeath]

I love the idea of a gaming OS and hopefully that will happen in the near future, it is said that MS are developing Windows 8 for gaming in mind but i dont think anyone is going to hold their breath about that.

Its true and I would bet money that the Xbox replacement coming in a few years will be running a version of win8.

in the same way that there are different versions of windows already for different devices, from media centre to portables.
I bet there will be a console version for their next console and I bet they will do so to make multi-platform development cheaper and faster.

now will that translate to better games for PC? I don't kow and thats the part I'm sceptical about.

I doubt it. They want to keep the Xbox OS lean, and you wouldn't add all the OS overheads if you wanted to do that. They've repeatedly said that they don't want XBoxs being used as computers, especially when everyone asks if IE is coming in the next update.

[exe3]

For those blaming windows, when they talk about overheads I don't think they're referring to the OS using some of the systems resources.

[BovineDeath]

For those blaming windows, when they talk about overheads I don't think they're referring to the OS using some of the systems resources.

Nah, he's talking about having to use the API's instead of controlling the hardware directly, which is something that the OS forces them to do. Plus, as well as the OS, you always have other stuff running - a messaging client, @#$%#$% adobe and apple updaters, and various other background programs.

[exe3]

For those blaming windows, when they talk about overheads I don't think they're referring to the OS using some of the systems resources.

Nah, he's talking about having to use the API's instead of controlling the hardware directly, which is something that the OS forces them to do. Plus, as well as the OS, you always have other stuff running - a messaging client, @#$%#$% adobe and apple updaters, and various other background programs.

What? I was alluding to API's but I was also alluding to API=/=OS. The overheads of the API isn't about resources being used, it's about adding extra layers between the game and the hardware making things less efficient, the trade off being that it's more compatible between the countless hardware configurations and is easier to code for.

[Lance P King]

Carmack: Raw Horsepower of PC's ''Hampered'' by Console Development

I'm curious just where he expresses that opinion... yes, that's how CVG summarised the interview (which I haven't watched) but their article (and the GON summary of it) don't reflect that point of view.

Seems to me he says that the PC horsepower is hampered by development costs.

etc... quotes...

Where in that does he lay the blame on the consoles?

Lol, agreed, I was equally confused for a bit there, I can only assume we've reached a point now where anything that's not PC, is console. It's kind of cool really, because this makes PC like the Rebels in Starwars and thus by default, hardcore PC people are like HanSolo.

Mac is Jabba the Hutt...Steve Jobs bank account is the Sarlacc Pitt