Capital Ship Balancing...

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Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby drakey » 11 Oct 11, 9:04 am

Originally Posted by CCP Tallest
I am proud to announce that this winter, we are going to release some long-anticipated ship balancing. Specifically, capital ship balancing.

For a long time, there has been an outcry in the community that fleet fights are stagnating and are just not as fun as they should be. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of pages of forum threads dedicated to this subject both on the official EVE Online forums, other EVE forums, as well as in blogs and articles. There is no shortage of opinions on this subject from players, devs and CSM members; the main concern that has been stated over and over again is that the proliferation of supercapitals is mostly to blame. Supercapitals can effectively deal with any size of target, and killing them takes a tremendous amount of damage. What this means is that with very few exceptions, the fleet with the most supercarriers wins. Huge, expensive ships should obviously be powerful, but there needs to be a way to fight back.

While not everyone agrees that supercarriers are to blame for everything, there were some issues that kept popping up:

Supercapitals are too hard to kill.
Supercarriers are far too versatile.
The Titan superweapon is too powerful.
Dreadnoughts are not good enough.
Remote ECM Bursts should not work on ships immune to ewar.
Sub-capitals are useless in fleet fights.


Supercapitals are too hard to kill

We wanted to make them a little bit weaker, but not gut them completely. We're doing a simple 20% reduction in Shield, Armor and Hull hitpoints on both supercarriers and titans.

Supercarriers are far too versatile

The reason that supercarriers can deal with any size of ship is the versatility provided by its massive drone bay. Having access to almost unlimited combat drones of all sizes and being able to launch 20 of them at a time means that they have an answer to almost any situation. In fact, we found that drones on capital ships in general to be detrimental to the way fleet fights should work. If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier. Supercarriers will now have a smaller drone bay and will only be able to put fighters and fighter bombers in it. We are increasing the signature resolution on fighters so that they deal less damage to smaller targets. We are also completely removing the drone bays of titans and dreadnoughts. Seeing as we didn't want to take damage away from dreadnoughts, we're boosting the damage bonus of Siege Module I to compensate for the loss of drones. The Moros had its drone bonus changed to a capital hybrid turret rate of fire bonus.

The Titan superweapon is too powerful

Once we decided to reduce the capabilities of the supercarriers, we had to make sure that the "supercapital blob" wouldn't simply be replaced by the "titan blob." This meant that we had to do something about the superweapons. The big problem with the superweapons is that they can take out the crucial logistics and command ships of the opposing fleet in the first few minutes of a fleet fight, which severely reduces the capabilities of any remaining sub-capital ships. To fix this, we are changing the superweapon so that it cannot fire upon sub-capital ships (capital ships being Freighters, Jump Freighters, Carriers, Dreadnoughts, Capital Industrial Ships, Supercarriers and Titans).

Dreadnoughts are not good enough

One of the biggest problems with dreadnoughts is the fact that you have to commit them for 10 minutes at a time with siege mode. We are shortening the duration of Siege Module I from 10 minutes to 5 minutes and cutting the Strontium Clathrate cost in half. Dreadnoughts in siege mode will also no longer be affected by Remote ECM Burst. There was some discussion about boosting the dreadnoughts further, but we want to see how they play out with the other capital changes first.

Sub-capitals are useless in fleet fights

The changes we're making should have a big impact here. Capital ships will have fewer drones to attack sub-capitals. Fighters will deal less damage to sub-capitals. Superweapons won't be able to shoot sub-capitals. Supercarriers will have fewer reserve fighters and fighterbombers, so having your sub-caps take down fighters and fighter bombers will have more of an impact on the fight.

Logging off should not be a viable tactic

Then there are the logoff mechanics. When you log off your character in space, the ship you are piloting disappears after 15 minutes. This, coupled with the millions of hitponts that supercapitals have, means that very few supercapitals are actually being destroyed. When a fleet is losing a large supercapital fight, they can simply log everyone off and be confident that they enemy fleet will only have enough time to kill a handful of their supercapitals. This kind of meta-gaming is not only un-fun but it just doesn't make much sense. When you commit your ship to a battle that should actually be a commitment. Only by winning or by making a tactical, well planned retreat should your ship be able to survive. It has been said that spaceships are serious business and they damn well should be. We are changing the logoff mechanics in such a way that as long as your enemies are actively engaged in fighting you, logging off is not going to save your ship.

The end. Except it's not the end at all.

As a part of our efforts to refocus towards FiS, these balancing changes are going to be the first of many, making sure that we continually balance and shake up EVE for years to come.

In conclusion, here is a full list of the changes we're making.

Supercarriers

Drone bay can only hold fighters and fighter bombers.
Reduce Shield, Armor and Hull hitpoints on all Supercarriers by 20%.
Reduce drone capacity.
Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)
Remote ECM Burst: Does not affect ships that are immune to electronic warfare (Supercarriers, Titans, Triaged Carriers and Sieged Dreads)


Fighters

Increase signature resolution to 400

Dreadnoughts

Remove drone bay from all dreadnoughts.
Siege Module I: Boost damage bonus from 625% to 700% to compensate for loss of drones.
Siege Module I: Duration time reduced to 5 minutes. Fuel cost -50%.
Moros: Remove drone bonus.
Moros: New bonus: 5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret rate of fire per level.


Titans

Remove drone bay from all titans.
Reduce Shield, Armor and Hull hitpoints by 20%.
Superweapon: Cannot shoot sub-capital ships.

Logoff timer

After a player logs out, there is a check for player aggression every 15 minutes. If you have been aggressed, the timer extends for 15 minutes; if you have not been aggressed, you disappear as before. Note: this is only for player aggression and will not change what happens when you log off during fights against NPCs.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby SpEEd_NiNjA » 11 Oct 11, 9:26 am

Actually some promising changes. People like the DRF bloc and PL will have to reevaluate their tactics whereas groups such as Goons already have tactics in place that dont rely on supercaps.

Still interested to see the rest of the expansion patchnotes - might entice me back again. Maybe...
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby cyclobs » 12 Oct 11, 7:56 am

\o/

sounds pretty good a few things there (dread seige / titan doomsday / logoff timer) that i really like
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby Sniper 2 » 13 Oct 11, 10:12 am

Titan blobs will become more prolific under the new changes, sure they can't DD sub cap fleet but they dont need to. Their guns insta pop any sub cap ship tey fire on. But they can't track them you say, well read on.

30 Titans jump onto the field and start to align out to their safe spot. Titan pilots sort not by name but by transversal velocity. They lock up contenders and when their contenders hit that magical 0 transversal they are insta popped. They will still need support to take out the dictors but they will still wreck havoc on the field.

More Titans you have on the field the more likely that a sub cap ship will have 0 transversal to at least one of the Titans.

These 30 Titans will remove 60 capitals in the first 10 minuts and then 30 every ten mintues after that so no change in dreadnought or carriers will change that.

I would've liked to see Titans unable to target anything smaller than a capital. Turn them into capital killers they are meant to be and not dominate the entire battle field.

Also remove the ability of super carriers to target structures. You want to grind through sov HP or station HP then bring dreadnoughts and use supers or a sub cap fleet as cover.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby cyclobs » 13 Oct 11, 1:46 pm

titans were meant to be a support ship. We might see a reduction in the titan tracking, and hopefully see a boost in tracking for dreads while in seige. To me that makes sense plus it'll give dreads a bit more of a usability factor

edit: also carriers can't hit POSs which is where titans and dreads are going to be more usefull
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby drakey » 13 Oct 11, 2:41 pm

Dreads do a decent job hitting battleships with 2 tracking computers (or tracking enhancers) - I'd love to see a slightly better damage and tracking buff to what they currently have...

One issue that lead to the dreads lack of popularity is the change in sov mechanics... Now that pos bashing is no longer linked to taking sov, dreads waned. This is because you can take out sov items quickly with fighters and fighter bombers...

Heck, I've killed TCU's in an all suppercarrier fleet... That tells you that **** before wasn't quite right...
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby Sniper 2 » 13 Oct 11, 5:24 pm

Remove the ability of drones to target structures then you will need to use dreads or titans.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby razor119922 » 18 Oct 11, 12:51 am

Actually some promising changes. People like the DRF bloc and PL will have to reevaluate their tactics whereas groups such as Goons already have tactics in place that dont rely on supercaps
.

By tactics you mean bringing 700 people in maelstroms to fight 200?

They should have left the dd the same and nerfed titan tracking. Its not the dd or sc ability to use normal drones that is the problem, its titan guns.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby Tripwire » 18 Oct 11, 1:01 am

razor119922 wrote:
Actually some promising changes. People like the DRF bloc and PL will have to reevaluate their tactics whereas groups such as Goons already have tactics in place that dont rely on supercaps
.

By tactics you mean bringing 700 people in maelstroms to fight 200?


+50 scorps to go with the 700 maels
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby cyclobs » 18 Oct 11, 7:23 am

razor119922 wrote:
Actually some promising changes. People like the DRF bloc and PL will have to reevaluate their tactics whereas groups such as Goons already have tactics in place that dont rely on supercaps
.

By tactics you mean bringing 700 people in maelstroms to fight 200 supercarriers?

They should have left the dd the same and nerfed titan tracking. Its not the dd or sc ability to use normal drones that is the problem, its titan guns.


fixed
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby SpEEd_NiNjA » 18 Oct 11, 8:27 am

razor119922 wrote:They should have left the dd the same and nerfed titan tracking. Its not the dd or sc ability to use normal drones that is the problem, its titan guns.


So you dont care that Supercarriers are essentially a "IWIN" button to the team who brings the most? Look at the problem dude. SC's have fighter bombers that pwn everything capital and POS related. Then they can dump a whole lot of normal drones for when they are caught with their pants down in some belt? Thats not OP to you?

Another thing a mass of titans just cynoing in and taking out the bubbler's so that they can make a get away? Thats not OP? Yes their guns can use a bit of work but even still the DD is what makes them OP for any fleet fight.

At this present time theres only one real way to fight supercap spamming blobs such as DRF - and thats the spam them more or to bring a hell of a lot of battleships. Thus your 700 v 200 fight.

Besides outnumbering your opponent just means your opponent didn't think ahead, plan correctly or are just down right naive. Its a valid tactic. If you want small fleet warfare you have to expect to either be very selective with your engagements or expect to be set upon by a larger force.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby razor119922 » 18 Oct 11, 4:22 pm

So you dont care that Supercarriers are essentially a "IWIN" button to the team who brings the most?


You obviously have no idea what your talking about and are relying on second hand information to base your agruement on. Supercarriers are usless in highlag fights. Drones dont work, thus dps doesnt get applied. The only thing supercarriers are used for is ganking other supers or capitals with local <100, more then that and you will run into issues of drone commands. I have had this problem so many times in my nyx. Have you ever flown a nyx in a fleet fight?


Look at the problem dude. SC's have fighter bombers that pwn everything capital and POS related
.

The only thing supers can do related to poses is defang them. Fighter bombers cannot hit towers. Again you would know this if you had any experience with what you and so many other pubbies are sperging about on eve-o.

12dreads > 100supers regarding pos ****.

Sov structers is a different story since you dont have to seige and fb can hit them. But if you really want eve to be about shooting ihubs for 4 hours in battleships go back to 2006 before capitals.


Another thing a mass of titans just cynoing in and taking out the bubbler's so that they can make a get away? Thats not OP? Yes their guns can use a bit of work but even still the DD is what makes them OP for any fleet fight.


Again you show how you no nothing about what you are argueing about. If titans are tackled by dics/hics and want to gtfo they are NOT going to dd and then spend another 10mins before they can jump agian. They are going to align out and insta the hic/dic with its guns.

At this present time theres only one real way to fight supercap spamming blobs such as DRF - and thats the spam them more or to bring a hell of a lot of battleships. Thus your 700 v 200 fight.


You have really no idea do you?

I will use pl as an example.

During the atlas campaign we were fighting with at max 150man fleets agianst 300-400 people and winning.( Before we even had huge number of supercaps)
Then atlas wouldnt fight us because they couldnt beat us. Thus they died.

We go north up do the same thing to the nc( at the same time building are super numbers) NC gets rolled multiple times and instead of giving up, they bring more, and more people. By then end we were fighting 150vs500-600 at these odds armorhacs/abaddons cant kill enough. This is where we started using tracking enhanced titans.

fast forward to now and 98% of pl have a titan or a supercarrier or both because they work fighting retarded numbers.

Besides outnumbering your opponent just means your opponent didn't think ahead, plan correctly or are just down right naive. Its a valid tactic. If you want small fleet warfare you have to expect to either be very selective with your engagements or expect to be set upon by a larger force[quote]

If 800 people cant think ahead, plan correctly or are just down right retarded to kill 150 subcaps + 200supers then thats their fault. The counter is really simple and its hillarious that goons have only figured it out after we gave them the fleet comp.


edit//

Yes I think the current state of 0.0 warfare is broken and retarded. No I don't think it has anything to do with supercarriers, Titans yes. You cant go around making balance changes because an obseen number of the same ships together are overpowered. Any huge numbers of ships together are overpowered, just because the majority of eve players in 0.0 alliance are dumb and cant work out viable counters doesnt mean they need to be nerfed to pre dominion changes.

All ccp had too do with this coming expansion was the log off timer, titan turret tracking, dread buff. With just those changes titans and supercaps would be dying in the hundreds.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby Tripwire » 18 Oct 11, 5:22 pm

It's like everything really... it just cascades until it becomes stupid and then people turn around and go "it's broken!!!"

People want to win... period.

If 200 dudes are being killed by 100 dudes, next time the 200 dudes will bring more to help ensure victory.

Before you know it it's 400-500 dudes vs 100 and the 400 dude group is starting to win.

Then the 100 guys go... fml this is just stupid, we want to fight these guys but these 5-1 odds are just mental. We need to bring in the big guns to balance things out again if (WHEN) they blob us to ****.

Quickly things get out of control and boosh. Laggy blob warfare where nothing works.

Seriously, you can blame the supers all you like... but the real source of the issue are the blobs who are so desperate to win and so risk averse they wont fight without 3 to 1 odds. But like razor said, once the blob gets to a certain size even supers are useless due to the game not being able to cope and just lagging out.

Which has become the new tactic... In order to ensure supers are not present and victory, BRING EVERYONE!!! overload the node so the hostiles don't bother... or just can't.
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby razor119922 » 18 Oct 11, 10:59 pm

Tripwire wrote:It's like everything really... it just cascades until it becomes stupid and then people turn around and go "it's broken!!!"

People want to win... period.

If 200 dudes are being killed by 100 dudes, next time the 200 dudes will bring more to help ensure victory.

Before you know it it's 400-500 dudes vs 100 and the 400 dude group is starting to win.

Then the 100 guys go... fml this is just stupid, we want to fight these guys but these 5-1 odds are just mental. We need to bring in the big guns to balance things out again if (WHEN) they blob us to ****.

Quickly things get out of control and boosh. Laggy blob warfare where nothing works.

Seriously, you can blame the supers all you like... but the real source of the issue are the blobs who are so desperate to win and so risk averse they wont fight without 3 to 1 odds. But like razor said, once the blob gets to a certain size even supers are useless due to the game not being able to cope and just lagging out.

Which has become the new tactic... In order to ensure supers are not present and victory, BRING EVERYONE!!! overload the node so the hostiles don't bother... or just can't.



This is like the most logical post I have ever seen from a Internode eve player. :golfclap:
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Re: Capital Ship Balancing...

Unread postby Sniper 2 » 19 Oct 11, 7:48 pm

My AEON with 20 sentry drones out DPS a dreadnought in siege while shooting a tower. Thats ridiculous and I think the way to combat that is to dis-allow drones from targeting structures of any type. If you want to grind through a POS or outpost then bring dreads or Titans or sub cap fleet.

And its quite easy to accumilate the isk needed for super caps. Before I stopped playing I had my AEON and bought a holder character for it plus had trained a Titan pilot and had the isk to buy the Titan. Pity PL didnt feel the need to let me in (I did know quite a few of them except the people accepting the apps) otherwise I may still be playing and adding another 2 supers to their lineup.

But such is life.
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