That pretty much said it all. If it was a guy in boxers with massive abs it aint sexist. But put a chick there. BAM SEXIST.

I think it is sexist to show a male cop in skin tight clohting that reffers to abs…. I also find it sexist as it makes men feel like they have to be the Alpha male, muscle covered hero.

I also find it racist as he has black armour.

Yes on some level it can be seen as sexist towards women. But really, who cares.

Christ GTA 3 was pushing the boundaries with prossies but this doesn’t even come close.

asmodai: This from the guy who early on in the piece started telling anyone with a dick they are not as capable as a woman at recognising sexism

This is not a thing I said at all.

What I said was: “Women are innately more qualified by the fact that they are women to comment on whether or not something is sexist towards women.”

For some reason you and others apparently interpreted that as an attack on “anyone with a dick”. I have one of those. Why would I attack myself?

I don’t think men are unqualified to engage in the debate on sexism. I just think that when it comes to the question “Is something sexist against women?” the first port of call for comment should be…. *drum roll* women.

asmodai: You want to throw that flamebait out there and then act surprised when it get’s a strong reaction?And then talk about condescension?

What I *hoped* was that people would read these (very different) thoughts from (very different) women and post some interesting and insightful comments after thinking about it. We got some of that. We also got a bunch of people telling women to shut up, a bunch of people saying that we should stop overanalysing things, a bunch of people attacking me for attacking men (?!?!) and a bunch of people saying that any discussion isn’t valid without citations from the Cyberpunk sourcebook(s).

If anybody felt my tone in my discussions with them was condescending, I apologise. I never directly or backhandedly insulted anybody’s intelligence or denigrated their argument as stupid, however.

asmodai: you set a bad tone when you started saying our opinions (and yep, there were a few trolls who played the Mr. Manly McMakemeasammich role…) are innately inferior because we don’t have a vagina.What, you think the best way to stamp out sexism is more sexism?

It is not sexist to say that women are more qualified to comment than men on whether or not something can be interpreted as sexist towards them.

It would be sexist to say “I only asked women, because men are all dumb.”

However, this is not a thing I said.

Tim Colwill: If I felt at all inclined to continue this discussion before, it’s pretty much over now.

Your high-handedly arrogant and condescending tone, coupled with your backhanded implications about the intelligence of people who disagree with you infuriates me vastly more than any issues I may have with your argument.

I’ll continue to watch this thread and delete any blatantly offensive comments to women, but I’m done with this.

This from the guy who early on in the piece started telling anyone with a dick they are not as capable as a woman at recognising sexism, even though some of of the women interviewed are of the same opinion as some of the male respondents? Or even just posting this story in the first place (hell, I wasn’t even aware, like Lucy in the article, that this was an issue). You want to throw that flamebait out there and then act surprised when it get’s a strong reaction? And then talk about condescension?

What the hell did you think was going to happen? “Oh, it’s the internet, everyone will discuss in a calm respectful manner free of hyperbole/trolling etc”.

It’s not as if Clovis and co. aren’t arguing anything that isn’t put forward by some of your female respondents.

Liza Shulyayeva
Game developer

I loved the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer and saw nothing inappropriate or misogynistic about it. I’ve seen someone claim that the trailer is misogynistic because a helpless woman is surrounded by armed men shooting at her. Clearly we didn’t see the same teaser. Not only are bullets literally shattering and glancing off of her skin as officers are shooting her to no visible effect, but she dispatched fourteen people with augmented blade-arms before finally being captured and recruited to be an elite member of the Psycho Squad (bear with me, I have not played Cyberpunk so I’m just going off of what I could piece together from the teaser).

She looked badass! These are the kinds of characters I want to play and see more of in games. I hate that developers have to tiptoe around this crap every time they want to put a woman into a game and still get flack when they present a teaser with a genuinely interesting female role.

You have a different opinion Tim, and that’s just peachy. But you set a bad tone when you started saying our opinions (and yep, there were a few trolls who played the Mr. Manly McMakemeasammich role…) are innately inferior because we don’t have a vagina. What, you think the best way to stamp out sexism is more sexism?

The women in question have every right to be offended if they choose to, but they have no right to be exempted from criticism, and their offense need not be taken as any sort of proof of sexism.

^THIS
if you’re offended avert ye gaze if you want to start telling other people it’s wrong you will be open to criticism, the immunity of some people/topics to avoid criticism is absurd in a society such as ours everything should be open to debate, analysis and criticism. There is no subject that should be exempt of this treatment

“…… a bunch of dudes in a group pointing phallic objects at a kneeling woman in her underwear and the material issuing forth from said phallic objects spraying into her face and upper body … ”

Brings a whole new perspective on people playing shooters … and gun advocates….

Will be very …. interesting …. if you try it as an experiment by broadcasting this view … and see if the debate changes direction quicker than the wind…..

At the very least it will make a great internet meme …. just needs something catchier.

Btw Tim…. need the font / highlighter etc back …

Thanks for the edit button tho… such a godsend.

especially for such an overwhelming thread such as this

Tim Colwill: If I felt at all inclined to continue this discussion before, it’s pretty much over now.

Your high-handedly arrogant and condescending tone, coupled with your backhanded implications about the intelligence of people who disagree with you infuriates me vastly more than any issues I may have with your argument.

I’ll continue to watch this thread and delete any blatantly offensive comments to women, but I’m done with this.

At least you have the courage to kill what you have created, Tim. You’re like a modern day Frankenstein.

Harden the Fuck up internet.
that is all

clovis: If people are not gifted enough to read into meaning…

(…)

I appreciate someone actually taking the time to post a decent argument for sexism in this video.

(…)

I still feel as though your opinion is flawed, for reasons I have listed, but these flaws are not from careless ignorance, which I can applaud.

If I felt at all inclined to continue this discussion before, it’s pretty much over now.

Your high-handedly arrogant and condescending tone, coupled with your backhanded implications about the intelligence of people who disagree with you infuriates me vastly more than any issues I may have with your argument.

I’ll continue to watch this thread and delete any blatantly offensive comments to women, but I’m done with this.

Nemesis_22:
Okay Clovis, if we’re going to be superior and condescending here, here goes.

Having played the source material before several times, having played its descendant Shadowrun for years, having an intimate knowledge of the Cyberpunk dystopian future where the lines between sex, gender and self are blurred due to the distortion of self realisation due to the fact that the self can be augmented and changed to become something else entirely until the original is all but lost, I can say I am familiar with the source material, and I can also say that this is still using sex to sell a product, and therefore is, by that note and the very definition, sexist.

It uses an attractive woman to gather attention.It then puts her in her underwear to ensure it -keeps- that attention.

It uses the trope of the femme fatale cyborg, a Cyberpunk gender stereotype that’s been done many, many times before.A gender stereotype is classified as an act of sexism.

It involves violence against women.If they showed her attacking the people shooting at her, this wouldn’t be the case, it would be responsive actions taken against an assault.You can refer to the source material, but this is a case of evidence, which means, THAT WHICH IS SEEN.What we -see- is an act of violence against a completely non responsive woman.What we can -guess- at is merely heresay, regardless of whatever talk of setting you choose to use.That which is not seen, observed or otherwise recorded cannot be given as evidence, and therefore is inadmissable.Therefore, this is an act of violence against a woman, perpetrated by what appear to be men or patriarchal figures, and thus, again by definition, an act of misogyny and therefore sexist.

Lastly, your argument that the source material justifies the use of sexualised depictions is flawed.The source material itself is irrelevant, because it is, by its own nature, also sexist.Drawing on a sexist material to create a sexist material of your own does not cancel out the original sexualisation of the material.That being said, it is, as posted above, merely a commentary on what society is becoming.By standards of today, however, by standards of THIS world and the world we live in NOW, this can, by means of examples I have just given, be classified as sexist material, but admittedly, of a far lesser nature than some examples which can be found in the world now.It is milder, yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that sexist overtones are present in the evidence of that which has been observed.I’m not saying that they are extremely bad ones, but they are present.

You’re own complete arrogance of bias is also showing, I must admit. You have just admitted to having discounted all opinions that disagree with your own as merely knee jerk, as they cannot be correct when weighed against what is merely your own opinion.The fact you have dismissed out of hand every female reaction that was offended about the material speaks greater volumes to me than your arguments do.By such definition, a woman has no right to be offended unless you deem it otherwise.Which is also, by example of ‘male privilege’, also sexism.

Anyway, we done here yet?

Sex selling the product is incidental, not the primary purpose of the woman being attractive. I’d argue that given that, the woman being attractive is not sexist, especially seeing as we are shown her having use beyond her appearance in the trailer. It is important that we see her in a more sexualised state at first, to play off fears that this is all sexist wish fulfillment, so that when we arrive at the trailers conclusion, it has more meaning.

A female cyborg killing things is no less common than a male cyborg killing things in Cyberpunk, and even then one trope does not a sexist trailer make. Furthermore, we see this trope being turned on its head when she is ‘redeemed’ and becomes every bit as government serving and law abiding as the other figures in the trailer. At the end of the day, it is impossible to entirely avoid tropes, and this trailer is certainly not riddled with them.

Violence against women is not inherently sexist. It is stereotyping on your part to conclude that the figures we see in their police uniforms are all male. Again, men attacking a woman is not inherently sexist. Furthermore, we see that the female is later recruited into the psycho squad. The attacks from the figures of indeterminate gender are presumably to distract her so that she can be restrained, and not fueled by any misogyny. It is obvious she is not being attacked for being a woman, There is no evidence here for sexism, you are simply assuming that because what you deem to be male figures are attacking a female it is sexist.

As I have explained many times, and as you even acknowledge (but then choose to ignore), the portrayal of sexist content in Cyberpunk is a critique of society. As much as people may ‘feel’ this to be sexist, it is in fact the opposite. The sexualisation is not simply because of the ‘male gaze’, or whatever other terminology you may choose to use, it is employed to show how bad sexualisation in the modern world may become. To say ‘but it still shows it, so it is sexist’ is a shallow interpretation. If people are not gifted enough to read into meaning as opposed to simply taking the face value of the portrayal of women in a dystopic setting, the blame is on them.

The women in question have every right to be offended if they choose to, but they have no right to be exempted from criticism, and their offense need not be taken as any sort of proof of sexism. If my criticism offends, I apologise. That is not my intention, as much as you may wish it is.

I appreciate someone actually taking the time to post a decent argument for sexism in this video. I am not convinced, but you have done a valiant job. I still feel as though your opinion is flawed, for reasons I have listed, but these flaws are not from careless ignorance, which I can applaud.

Having played the source material before several times, having played its descendant Shadowrun for years, having an intimate knowledge of the Cyberpunk dystopian future where the lines between sex, gender and self are blurred due to the distortion of self realisation due to the fact that the self can be augmented and changed to become something else entirely until the original is all but lost, I can say I am familiar with the source material, and I can also say that this is still using sex to sell a product, and therefore is, by that note and the very definition, sexist.

It uses an attractive woman to gather attention. It then puts her in her underwear to ensure it -keeps- that attention.

It uses the trope of the femme fatale cyborg, a Cyberpunk gender stereotype that’s been done many, many times before. A gender stereotype is classified as an act of sexism.

It involves violence against women. If they showed her attacking the people shooting at her, this wouldn’t be the case, it would be responsive actions taken against an assault. You can refer to the source material, but this is a case of evidence, which means, THAT WHICH IS SEEN. What we -see- is an act of violence against a completely non responsive woman. What we can -guess- at is merely heresay, regardless of whatever talk of setting you choose to use. That which is not seen, observed or otherwise recorded cannot be given as evidence, and therefore is inadmissable. Therefore, this is an act of violence against a woman, perpetrated by what appear to be men or patriarchal figures, and thus, again by definition, an act of misogyny and therefore sexist.

Lastly, your argument that the source material justifies the use of sexualised depictions is flawed. The source material itself is irrelevant, because it is, by its own nature, also sexist. Drawing on a sexist material to create a sexist material of your own does not cancel out the original sexualisation of the material. That being said, it is, as posted above, merely a commentary on what society is becoming. By standards of today, however, by standards of THIS world and the world we live in NOW, this can, by means of examples I have just given, be classified as sexist material, but admittedly, of a far lesser nature than some examples which can be found in the world now. It is milder, yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that sexist overtones are present in the evidence of that which has been observed. I’m not saying that they are extremely bad ones, but they are present.

You’re own complete arrogance of bias is also showing, I must admit. You have just admitted to having discounted all opinions that disagree with your own as merely knee jerk, as they cannot be correct when weighed against what is merely your own opinion. The fact you have dismissed out of hand every female reaction that was offended about the material speaks greater volumes to me than your arguments do. By such definition, a woman has no right to be offended unless you deem it otherwise. Which is also, by example of ‘male privilege’, also sexism.

Anyway, we done here yet?

spooler: which is the point people have been making using sexualisation to point out errors in society is not equal to being sexist, you can’t convey a sexist society without showing sexism.

Exactly. Even in the video, the poster in the shop window selling cyberware is not dissimilar to current computer shows – I don’t see the same diatribe about those.

This entire thing is not unlike 1984 being a statement about THAT government controlled future – only this is a corporation controlled future.

It is crazy-talk to call this anything but in-line with the art and world portrayed and they did a marvelous job of it.

Of course not understanding the context people don’t understand ANYTHING.

gammad: Cyberpunk by its nature is sexualized. Its supposed to be a commentary on how bad our modern society can turn into.

which is the point people have been making using sexualisation to point out errors in society is not equal to being sexist, you can’t convey a sexist society without showing sexism.

look at the original artwork for Cyberpunk 2020 in the original book.

http://dc93.4shared.com/doc/TAnvrARJ/preview010.png

doesn’t stop there either.. Look at the chrome books as well.

link
link
link

Again no one really cared about this back then. The reason why CD Projekt are marketing the game like this has little to do with Sexism and more to do with staying authentic to the original PnP roleplaying game.. Cybrepunk 2020 was marketed in the exact same way as this trailer. If you’re having an issue with this.. you’re having issue more with the PnP RPG of the 1980s than the upcoming game.. I think Tim’s showing a bit of a lack of understanding here, maybe if you had a copy of the PnP RPG you could open it up and clearly see why the game is being marketed this way.

Even still it goes even further back.. Molly Millions being the catalyst to all of this. She was the original Razor Girl afterall.
http://www.antonraubenweiss.com/gibson/gallery/neuromancer-graphicnovel-lost/front.jpg

Cyberpunk by its nature is sexualized. Its supposed to be a commentary on how bad our modern society can turn into.

You seem to have a hard time grappling with this, so i’ll give it one last shot to try to explain it to you without using too much ‘logical rhetoric’. I am not denying that people can feel this is sexist towards them, I am arguing that them ‘feeling’ it is sexist is in no way proof that it is, and indeed that many of these ‘feelings’ of sexism are based on incomplete understandings of the subject material. This has yet to be refuted, other than claims of ‘Understanding of subject material doesn’t matter’.

To give an example, lets say someone was to read The Fellowship of the Ring, and then communicate to me that they felt Middle Earth was created by a giant space whale. I, having read the Silmarillion, could argue otherwise. Their feeling is a genuine one, based off their own limited knowledge and context, but it is obviously not based on a full understanding of the subject material. Bringing up the Silmarillion would not be extraneous information, and the emotional response based on incomplete fact would not be considered to be as valid as a properly formulated opinion. Again, there is nothing special about sexism that makes it exempt from the regular rules of discussion or debate.

On another note, I am sorry to read that you have been convinced by these knee-jerk emotional responses. It is sad to see.

Tim Colwill:
I repeat my belief that you don’t need to understand the subject matter to comment on what is ultimately a marketing video.

For your opinion to matter in a debate you do. To get upset by something you’re right you don’t need to understand it but when you start claiming “this piece of film shows *insert opinion here*” your opinion of what the film shows is completely irrelevant, the intention and context of the film say you saw the last movie in a trilogy your interpretation is missing context and will be different to everyone has that context.

It is ridiculous to ASSUME – and ASSUMING is what you’re doing when taking something OUT OF CONTEXT that there is some hidden “women at gunpoint” message trying to be conveyed in the video.

Sexism is a message conveyed to base opinion on traditional sterotypes. A woman at gunpoint who just killed 10 people IS NOT A TRADITIONAL STEREOTYPE and anyone thinking that somehow a woman at gunpoint is the same as a woman in the kitchen barefoot is fucking insane.

Psychophants – look it up.

Nuff said.

I commented with a similar view on the rifle squad earlier, it has been used confirmation bias.

I think this entire discussion would be better off if the topic wasn’t approached with the idea of implanting ideas(therefore close scrutiny) of sexism and instead asked if the trailer was offensive. I would of liked to know views of the people that are in the article what they thought of the trailer before being asked by another person if it was sexist.

After reading most of the responses above. I feel that the trailer is not sexist. I believe that there is no intention by the people who made it to be intentionally sexist (Although i haven’t look at any other sources apart from the trailer). I feel the only things wrong with the trailer are, the advertisement in the Cyberware window as it’s unnecessary and I have no real idea of what that’s trying to convey, and that it seems intentional to market towards males because it uses a female to draw attention before the “reveal”. I don’t think that the female character in the trailer purpose is to display weakness or to display social commentary, but merely to attract attention.

Following my opinions the trailer is sexist as it cater towards male (female-attracted), how ever I don’t think that is the sort of thing that can be overcome in a trailer like this unless there is a person for each gender being the point of focus in the same view. Maybe if the developers release an alternative trailer it would be ok?

It made sense in my head, I am bad at articulation.